A Blow To Dickensian Employers

Discussion in 'Speakers Corner' started by bradders, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. Mick Barnett United Kingdom

    Mick Barnett New Member

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    That would suggest to me you don't know what these do for you. Particularly the ECHR. Dangerous times, heavy hitting Alt-Right wing taking power, Mrdoch controlling policy....Europe's been here before, which is why the ECHR was invented.
     
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  2. noobie

    noobie Elite Member
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    Could you tell me what you describe as "alt right" and what power they have been taking?

    As for the echr did you know Judges can only be dismissed from office if the other judges decide, by two-thirds majority, that the judge has ceased to fulfil the required conditions. Judges enjoy, during their term as judges, the privileges and immunities provided for in Article 40 of the Statute of the Council of Europe which states as follows;

    CHAPTER VIII – PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES Article 40 a. The Council of Europe, representatives of Members and the Secretariat shall enjoy in the territories of its Members such privileges and immunities as are reasonably necessary for the fulfilment of their functions. These immunities shall include immunity for all Representatives to the Consultative (Parliamentary) Assembly from arrest and all legal proceedings in the territories of all Members, in respect of words spoken and votes cast in the debates of the Assembly or its committees or commissions.

    b. The Members undertake as soon as possible to enter into agreement2 for the purpose of fulfilling the provisions of paragraph aabove. For this purpose the Committee of Ministers shall recommend to the Governments of Members the acceptance of an Agreement defining the privileges and immunities to be granted in the territories of all Members. In addition a special Agreement shall be concluded with the Government of the French Republic defining the privileges and immunities which the Council shall enjoy at its seat.

    Judges who have to have a two third vote to be removed and also have immunity, can hardly be described as representing the people.
     
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  3. johnv

    johnv Elite Member

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    You forgot to mention privatising our NHS and bringing back the workhouse.
     
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  4. bradders

    bradders Elite Member

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    Sports Direct and Amazon have already done that;)
     
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  5. Lightning_650

    Lightning_650 Elite Member

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    Here is the ECHR in it's entirety.
    http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf
    Have a good read,(and laugh),at the weasel words contained within it.There are an enormous number of clauses that allow authorities to ride roughshod over the Articles as and when they choose.
    A couple of examples :
    ARTICLE 10 Freedom of expression 1.
    Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises. 2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary

    ARTICLE 11 Freedom of assembly and association
    1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests. 12 13 2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This Article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.
    The statements in bold allows the authorities to ban any meeting or demonstration for whatever reason they come up with.
    Generally,the prohibitions will apply to demonstrations/speeches/gatherings etc.etc,by those who hold views other than those that the Government would like us to have
    In practice this means anyone considered,"right wing".

    It's also worth remembering that the ECHR considers the Judicial systems of all nations to be be equal and fair.
    But:
    http://ec.europa.eu/justice/newsroo.../110510/fti_pre-trial_detention_report_en.pdf
    4. Our report shows that:  across the EU, people who have not been convicted of any crime are being detained without good reason for months or even years, often in appalling conditions that make trial preparation impossible;  some countries‟ laws allow people to be detained for years before trial, others have no maximum period at all; few countries have an adequate review system;  non-nationals are far more likely than nationals to suffer the injustice of arbitrary and/or excessive pre-trial detention and be deprived of key fair trial protections;  growing numbers are being extradited under the European Arrest Warrant, only to be held for months in prison, hundreds of miles from home, waiting for trial;  Europe‟s over-use of pre-trial detention is ruining lives and costing EU countries billions every year; and 1 Strengthening mutual trust in the European judicial area – A Green Paper on the application of EU criminal justice legislation in the field of detention, COM(2011) 327, Brussels 14 June 2011 2 Pre-trial detention is defined differently across the EU; this report defines pre-trial detention as the time spent in detention between charge and sentencing 3 Roadmap for strengthening procedural rights of suspected or accused persons in criminal proceedings, (2009/C 295/01), 30 November 2009 4 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 56% 48% 34% 49% 38% 0% 20% 40% 60% 80% 100% 120% 140% 160% 180% Bulgaria Cyprus Hungary Italy Spain Fig 1: Prison overcrowding: the EU's worst offenders over 100% capacity Source: International Centre for Prison Studies (ICPS)  many EU countries‟ justice systems are not ready to make full use of the potentially valuable European Supervision Order (“ESO”), which could save resources4 and ease the severe overcrowding that blights prisons in over half of all Member States (see Figure 1 below).
     
    #145 Lightning_650, Jan 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  6. Mick Barnett United Kingdom

    Mick Barnett New Member

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  7. Outliar

    Outliar Member

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  8. Outliar

    Outliar Member

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    I'm no expert in these things, but the quoted paragraphs read to me that judges are only immune in relation to what they say and how they vote in the debates in the Assembly. Nothing more. This is the same privilege that our MPs have in the UK in respect of debates in Parliament. It exists to protect them from libel law, so that they can perform their duties as judges, so that frank and open discussion can take place. Similarly, the dismissal arrangements are there to protect judges from political interference presumably: the alternative is to end up with a US-style Supreme court that is politicised.

    Where I have more sympathy for the distrust of judges is the lack of diversity of backgrounds and life experience. This has long led to prejudice and out-of-touch judgments being made, at least in the UK.

    Unless I'm missing something?
     
  9. Gimlet

    Gimlet Elite Member
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    They don't do anything for me. They aspire to do things to me which I cannot counter nor hold to account by democratic means. I won't accept that. Some "rights" can be bought at too high a price. I've no idea what the "Alt-Right" is other than an invention of the bourgeois Left who view the anti-democratic institutions of the EU and a means of over-riding electoral results which displease them. The supposed influence of Murdoch in domestic governance is more than replicated by the corporate lobbyists who jerk the strings of the European Commission without the check of democracy. If our governance is compromised by corporate interest (which it is), the EU is infinitely worse and purposely designed to frustrate all means of remedy.
    Its as corrupt and bent as it gets, but if its your corrupt and bent that's OK. Fraid not.
     
  10. AirCon

    AirCon Growing Old Disgracefully.
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    The one AND ONLY thing I like about this thread is that in my browser tab is says "A Blow to Dick X"......
     
  11. duke63 United Kingdom

    duke63 Elite Member
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    One thing is obvious from this and other threads in here. Britain is a very divided Nation and despite all May's rhetoric about making Britain a fairer nation, all she has done to date is divide it further, stand aside and watch whilst A&E departments fail to be fit for purpose and an international Charity says there is a humanitarian crisis in our own hospitals, make plans to regulate small business further whilst not doing the same to big business and spout nonsense without saying how she will make it fairer.
     
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  12. bradders

    bradders Elite Member

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    How is that Mays fault? The country has always been decided, since one Duchy invaded another. :)
     
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  13. Lightning_650

    Lightning_650 Elite Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. noobie

    noobie Elite Member
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    Society relies on people, people are arseholes, no government can plan for that or be responsible for it.

    We look around when something goes wrong and say why aren't the government getting involved, so they do and in some cases end up taking the problem in to make it better but again it relies on people.

    Some want the government, who ever they happen to be, to take over so they can hide the real problem by saying " It;s the governments fault" rather than hide most of the time that we as a society are to lazy to take responsibility and have rather handed it over easily than do anything ourselves.

    Perfect example Last Friday, half a dozen protesters outside my local library saying "don't close our library" the Library blame the local council, the local council blame the county council and the county council blame government so then like some in hear bleat on about "it's the governments fault our libraries are closing booooooooooo.

    No it's not, it's our fault, we have mostly stopped using them but lets blame the government rather than say we can't be arsed anymore.

    The same goes for most of the stuff we blame the government on we largely moan for moaning sake because we have relinquished responsibility because we couldn't be arsed anymore.
     
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  15. finm

    finm Monarch of the glen

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    enjoying yer moan?
     
  16. duke63 United Kingdom

    duke63 Elite Member
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    You got it the wrong way round, noobie. Government are arseholes. Starve services of money and then blame austerity.

    If you say you are going to do something as PM, then you will be judged on how you do that. Remember this is her promise to the Nation. To date she is going completely in the wrong direction.
     
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  17. noobie

    noobie Elite Member
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    Yeah taa, you've been quiet of late, you okay?

    Duke, according to you, Jesus Christ would be going in the wrong direction.

    We bemoan "the kids today are refusing to take responsibility for their life" most are, most are special snowflakes but it's clear some have learnt their skill from their parents.

    We are asking more and more of the services that were never created for our needy society. If we want more then we have to pay more. We can't keep paying Primark money whilst expecting Harrods service.

    We can't keep saying our government is at fault then a third of the nation can't even be arsed to vote for the next government
     
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  18. Outliar

    Outliar Member

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    Whilst I have genuine sympathy with the sovereignty argument, and the beauracracy of the EU and much else that's wrong, I'd just like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

    The idea of holding any body democratically accountable is, in my view, rather a questionable idea in practice. In theory we all want it. But I would argue the UK's first past the post system is hardly giving voters a way to hold governments to account.

    I don't think the centre left invented Alt Right - the first time I heard the term was in connection with Breitbart news and its support of Trump.
     
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  19. Outliar

    Outliar Member

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    True, but she has tried to claim she is a unifier so you can't blame people who then criticise her for not following through. She 'supported' remain in the campaign, whilst managing to never really say anything. Then she lurches to the right thinking she was playing to the populist voice of Britain, and trying to placate the right in her own party knowing Labour was too weak to fight back. One minute she's not going for hard brexit, and then today she's saying we're leaving the EU no question. Who knows what she thinks, or what plan is in place (I think she doesn't know yet).

    I miss the principled politicians of the past. At least you knew where they stood on things, and could believe in their values. May is typical of the career politician that will say anything and do anything to stay in power. She and those like her are a major root cause of the problems we have, on both sides of the left-right divide. Lobbyists have power because politicians don't care about doing the right thing, only what will keep them in power. That's not governing, that's trying to lead by following public opinion and rule by focus group.
     
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  20. Outliar

    Outliar Member

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    Whilst I agree individuals are lazy and don't take responsibility for outcomes, that doesn't excuse those that would govern from doing a good job of it. They carry power and responsibility, and affect real lives through policy decisions (read mistakes). Swathes of our population voted leave, for many reasons, but in a nutshell many communities have been dessimated over decades and just have lost hope and opportunity. I defy anyone to prosper without hope and opportunity. There are always exceptions, but governing is about the majority not the outliers.

    Policy is not easy, so I'm not saying that it's even possible to govern well. But we should try, surely?
     

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