Lightning, I was quoted completely out of context... that is why I replied to that comment, obviously not by you. This is what I posted. "Much the same, price work when building houses.. if they did this, the work ethic would change and house prices would increase. Last time I check, It's poor pay if you are lazy but good pay if you work hard. My brother did it, then he had a bad back, so had to go back on the books and work on an hourly rate." The whole post was simplistic (that part of a whole post, taken out of context) and I still stand by it. It is not complete bollocks! So I will agree to disagree with that post. If it was complete bollocks that would make me a liar. I was quoted as," if you are lazy you won't earn" , which is true or "if you work hard you will earn great money." The latter part, is not what I wrote! Those who like those posts that support people being rude to each other on here, suggest to me that the topic is more important than the shared interest we all have and why we joined the forum... pretty silly as most people meet. These media reports are sensational things, with a certain provocative angle, that cause this kind of reaction. It's conquer and divide, upsetting people. I've seen my own main business sector cast in a bad light on the news, but it's the minority they report and they don't give a balanced view. About the budgets, cuts.. It's the small businesses (in my sector) that (I know of) that out perform the larger ones in the quality of service they provide and staff morale. Yet it seems recently, the modern way is too push small business out, in this sector. Ducati forum disclaimer: This may not be true in all cases, subject to variables. It's my view not fact. As Chizel said going off topic, as many have. It was in keeping with the topic in the post as a whole. This whole topic is going off topic If we can go in circles, boring.... which is hard without 30min answers. What is great money? even though I never said that! National wage is what? 26K. I personally agree that's not "Great" money to me. That's my perspective though. I know this is not on topic with the original post (which was a poverty pay) but we are digressing here. "great" money is 100K+ (to me or more in fact more) but that's the top 1 to 4% Can we all earn that? I don't think 26K is good money, but as a bench mark at this time... it is what it is. Anything else, is what individuals interpretation of that they consider good, bad.. The point is if you work, meaning you are being productive you will < bad choice of word, can earn good money, new build. This is to true (at times anyway). If you google national average.. It lists jobs and on average, construction jobs are around, slightly lower or above the national average. Those in management are higher. Of course some brickies, chippies, sparkies, plumbers earn more or less.(some earn cash too) The median average,is based on the most occuring. How many work hard... long hours, how many are on the books on hourly pay. Not accurate to suggest this is the average on new build, price work. I posted about new build! Not about working in Dubai or odd jobs for people, or even building one or two houses. I too have been around... I worked on multi million pound engineering projects from the day I left school. At just 21, I was our company team leader on site (obviously just the jobs I was on). I had guys in their 40's working under me. 1m our end of projects 26m+ for well known companies. Age is not a precursor for success, but I will agree (with age comes experience which is almost everything, assuming it's the right kind, but specific experience is not gained while not working or not doing the task specific, other experiences that can help might be). I have learnt so much through my varied occupations and roles and I am still learning. I know many things people I've worked with that are still doing the same thing, have not but I'm not up to speed with the technology they use now. I did not need to do pipe work for 10 years to be good at it, some guys are limited by their own limitations. We all have them. I eventually after working for another company, moved South and got a company car and desk and spec'd these type of jobs and other technical solutions. Before going self employeed, where I was hired for 11/2 times the pay of the engineers... some were very experienced guys, the type who taught me when I was an apprentice. Gradually moved into to domestic work (back on the tools) I had no money in the bank (as had ploughed it all into my property) So had to sub contract to a local builder at first, who made me an unofficial site supervisor after while. Which felt like a step back but (kept ploughing money into my property) Even today I can't finance that type of (industrial) work I did for years, with my own money or borrow, Cash flow. So in my eyes I will never be "rich". Rich in my eyes is determined by interpretation. Which in my case, stems from the car racing paddock and people I know. Which some people could not comprehend but I know those people too. There is good and bad at both at both ends of the spectrum. The middle are often the worse I find, but maybe because they resent trying so hard, be penalised so much and being resented for it. I don't know. People could mistake me for being rich, but it's all borrowed money. I'm not even comfortable, which some people would role their eyes at.... but, even though I do have some spare money each month it's accounted for 10x over. In 1 mins time I could have an issue and be bankrupt by next payday. Had one scare last week, 1 last month and a couple that could have been an issue in the last 12 months. One is off the back of Austerity, which effects my main income. We even juggle child care to save money and borrowed our tax money to fix our boiler, you would not think that if you new me superficially. "Just had a call 09.30, now our income has dropped" It's not quite the same as having a mortgage that depends on a modest income. I historically have always worked on the basis of keeping monthly costs down, so we could pay the bills with just one of us working... Until we took the plunge. Almost 6 or 7 years ago at 29. I got a loan, sold my race car and bikes (which I only used when the money was there) never borrowed money for a depreciating asset. Got a deposit together, using my house as collateral, with some interviews with the bank, a medical and very strict contracts from the bank. I borrowed 1m, at one point I owed near double that. I have low ration of capital in the various things I have on the go, so the risk is high and long term. I don't have the cash flow to change this and I am bound by certain restrictions. To digress, I could not earn, engineers money when I did domestic projects (direct) due to foc time running round sorting problems, time off in the recession in between projects. Had 6 guys working for me. Hard work was the hassle and the hours and the customers, time vs earning not great < still better than a low paid job. I earnt that kind of money working 8 till 4 as a subby though, with no one working for me. I was happy with that income time vs earning. I also remember at that time, there was a shortage of brickies in the paper and they were making good money. It was about the time, they were calling out for trades people in Canada and offering good money for that too. All the guys I knew/know working on site earned good money (not great money) it was actually quite rare when they had no work. Obviously working out the ground is problematic and other aspects of the build, being held up etc.. Something I don't (choose not to) get involved with but I am aware of. I know annually they still earnt on average good money.... if compared to the national average. considerably more. My brother is still doing this now. He too has re-invested money in house by extending it. If he wanted he could remortgage and borrow, if I were him I'd get my mrs running a child care business but each to their own. Then they would have more income and they could think about other things.... choices. They choose having a life. I've worked for builders, property developers and the public. None of which refers to that one line I was quoted on. I paid to have a shell built on one of my renovations (which I was going to do with guys I know) but the time it would take to do it, round other work... so I put it out to tender. Then, I knew the cost rather than having that to worry about it in my budget to complete the job. I took that hit. I was lucky (choices I made over the years) as I'd got myself into the position where I had the cash flow to do it, I think we remortgaged at that time, as we had another income... but I am now not talking about the same things I was quoted about and this is not reflected in the national averages for construction either. I know several guys who do this in fact most who did work for me. There still is not much money in renovations I do, but there is technique to it.. buy the house as cheap as poss, with the opportunity to add value as cheap as poss. Based on others in the area that show that difference in current price and resale value. You can't pay a builder to do everything. Really needs to be primary address (keep overheads low). Keep it more than 12 months, factor in stamp, fees, mortgage... it's not a good living but ok as a secondary, when not wasting money on rent. Dedication though, which I am losing. Last one, I found a house with potential for a driveway in an area (high street) with limited parking. Did a few other bits, because people are funny when they look at what you paid and what you asking 12 month later, they do silly things like try and work out what you spent (which is irrelevant). A loft conversion on a house, that cost 18 or 28K might add way more resale value as house goes from 2 to 3 or 4 bedroom. Same as stone build large property with a driveway on the high steet, it is what it is... Most wealthy people seem to not want to have that work carried out, the hassle, it costs a fortune to hire a renovation magazine type company that will undertake it all while you working in China or where ever. Some wealthy people will buy a place and live somewhere else while they have the work carried out, but I can't afford the house/cash flow to do that. I can't work in two places once either so delegating is a cost as it time out of work.. When you are really fussy about finish, stone and reclaimed imperial bricks...(period property) type of gates. Some house buyers don't have the vision to see what can be done, but will like it when it's finished, they see the value. Some just want the perfect property but won't pay for it... it's risky, with house prices etc. I'd prefer to affordable housing but it's not the spec I work to and would lose money. I do not know any guys my age or older. Who have not managed to do ok from building work, unless they were addicted gamblers, and or heavy drinkers. Some go bust from bad payment but I started taking deposits and staged payments, paid my wages and suppliers first. I know the builders I worked for would have at least 80% of all the money by the time the walls were plastered. I've known two guys (who did work for me) who did exactly the same job and had two completely different standards of living. One lost his licence twice for drink driving and used a unreliable van, good plaster though. The other had tidy VW T5, Ducati, MX bike, good house and holidays, use to take his mrs out for decent meals. These were one man and a van types, who may work with a few lads they know as a team. Me personally when I was doing what I did, I'd have been better working in Herts, Beds, Bucks affluent areas, as I took on small jobs, bespoke work. Again this is still not what I was referring too but shows the diversity. I had to evolve, when options were taken away. That is why I do my own renovations, my work is higher spec, more design focus rather than practical (but limited by budget) and people don't pay for it unless they have that kind of disposable income. I've sold houses for highest price for that type of property since I stopped working for people. The trouble is, I can't do it quickly because I have to earn the money to pay for the work. So I do one at a time and live in them. I know plenty builders (braver than me) who have built houses. Who live in a house they've built all paid for, some 500k+ properties. In fact my mortgage adviser builds houses, he said he works on a build 3 to pay for one basis. I guess these are specific to area and low volume, high spec. But, I've never said great money! I don't think you can earn "great" money as a business owner unless you upscale. In fact I think it's nigh on impossible in todays times, unless you are really good with tech, or entrepreneurial, finance, law etc. I wish I was. I have managed to do ok, out of engineering and construction but I had to upscale and diversify, and I proud of my achievements but wary I could be in the crap at any moment. I got out of building work to some extent, it was a hard way to earn < hence work hard, and work hard on new build can still pay more than regular paye jobs, despite problems but I did not want to do that. I'm not a builder. I'm an engineer that worked and got into the building trade as it was easier to finance and get started in. I'm not so healthy now, I'm not sure if it's genetic or stress or what. As of now, 2016/2017. I think being a small cog in a big machine, i.e. a project manager for a big company. Is better than being a big cog in a small machine, i.e. a company owner of a small business. I reserve the right to change that view as I do evolve and my views have changed every time I get do something new. Red tape = running costs and other laws, restrict reinvestment. It will take me 2 to 3 years before I pay off one loan. Which I had to sell everything to aquire and put everything on the line to secure. That was a 10 year loan, that gave me a deposit to borrow a much larger sum of money over 25 years. Off the back of that (5 years later) I borrowed more over 35 years. Scary. I have no idea, with stamp duty etc and other rule changes, how I can use that new income to make more money and therefore take on more people. Normally I'd sell my house and move but I plan to stay here until kid(s) leave. It's not easy. I am not going to expand my main business because we've had too many problems securing contracts and I don't need that worry, which could see me lose everything. Had a scare over Christmas... that we might lose 50% of our income but we are back to 95%. I am considering getting back into engineering, but I'd have to retrain.. and I end up training for years and not sure I can be part of the big business world again. It's all BS to me now, lean process, change management...small business is getting just as bad. Meetings for the sake of it. Which makes me think about just living on a boat with a wood burner. I don't have any answers as I said. I would love everyone to be in a good place in life. I employ people on attitude. I appreciate those who do their bit for me and we look after them. To me, where I am lots of decisions in central government seem to negatively effect the small business, which provides upwards of 90% of the GDP It would seem. Yet, if you believe the media, big businesses that provide all this "glass door" culture seem to get all the breaks, tax etc. Some avoid, fail to pay etc... Differences of opinion and as Chiz say's going round in circles (as always with these kinds of post and different peoples life experiences) But most definitely not complete bollocks or even remotely ridiculous. Which I find a bit dis pointing coming from someone who I considered a mate but I'm a big boy. As an adult I except, the posts I write are perhaps worded poorly and open to misinterpretation and people are entitled to a different view. That goes both way though. I don't let people treat me with less respect than I give them, so can only assume it was personal and which case apologised... as I never intend to offend. It's not worth falling out over f'all. Very little we say or do on here will change political decisions. So it's pretty cheap to put that first.