What I voted Yes to in 1975 was joining the Common Market. What I did not vote for was a Federal Europe, which is where we are rapidly headed. This is a fundamnetal change to the constitution of the UK that it's people, from whom our rulers claim to gain their legitimacy, have not been consulted over. So answer one simple question, does the Law made in the EU take precedence over the Law enacted by the UK Parliament ?
The simple answer is yes, eu law over rides UK law. The reality is it rarely conflicts, so its not a problem.
That question is not simple at all, but quite complex. Generally the UK is under an obligation to implement in the UK measures which are adopted Europe-wide, unless the UK has an opt-out from that measure. What you call "law made in the EU" includes: * some measures from which UK has a specific opt-out (e.g. Euro currency provisions of the treaty of Maastricht), * some measures which all member states can elect to adopt or not (e.g. metric system weights & measures), * some measures which have no applicability to UK (e.g. provisions about growing olive trees), * some measures which deal with cross-border traffic (over which UK can only have part-jurisdiction shared with the other party), * some measures which UK is supposedly implementing but never does, * etc etc. The answer to your question is that some does and some does not, depending on its subject matter and what has been agreed. Hope that's clear enough.
Yeah Loz, but our faceless bureaucrats are accountable to our Government, who are the EU bureacrats accountable to ?
Obviously - to the European parliament (whose members are elected directly by all the peoples of Europe), to the Council of Ministers (which comprises ministers from all the governments of Europe, elected by their respective peoples), to the current Presidency (held by each nation in turn, rotating each 6 months), and to the Commission (whose commissioners are appointed by the governments of Europe which are elected by their peoples). The system has vastly more democratic accountability built into it than our own dear British constitution has ever had.
That was rather over simplified on my part, but this whole independence thing is nonsense. The reality is we work and live across borders, predominantly with other eu countries. The closer our laws, customs and attitudes are aligned the easier it will be. Man walked out of the cave and discovered the world. The whole daily mail / bnp anti Europe rubbish is akin to walking back into the cave. Actually, have you noticed how nick Griffin has a neanderthal brow? If we are patriots, and want to do the best for our country we will want to move forward proclaiming the united kingdom is modern, intelligent and open. It's not 1927 any more, and it never will be again, that's why you can only buy clocks that run backwards in joke shops.
I disagree. I have no problem working and living with borders, and we import more from the rest of the EU than we export to them, which is why I voted for a Common Market and free trade agreements. We also trade with the rest of the world. To categorise anti EU feelings as 'daily mail / bnp rubbish' is to dismiss the concerns of a large number of UK citizens who neither read the Daily Mail nor are supporters of the BNP, and I don't see the significance of Nick Griffin's brow. The BNP are able to gain ground because the mainstream parties refuse to recognise, let alone discuss, the concerns of ordinary hard working people. If we move forward along the current path it is only a matter of time before the UK ceases to exist as a separate entity. Monetary Union is a dogs breakfast without fiscal integration and once you have fiscal integration you have lost control of your economy. A one size fits all fiscal policy will mean that the likes of Greece and Spain will be condemned to being poor for generations. They would be better off leaving the Euro, devaluing and rebuilding their economies themselves rather than becoming slaves of Germany and France, look to Iceland to see what is possible. We have the situation now where the EU is ruling that all citizens of the EU have to be treated equally by member states, so essentially we have economic migrants from poor EU countries coming to the UK with an entitlement to UK benefits who have not contributed a penny into the UK coffers from which the benefit is paid, and you wonder why the BNP gets support ? The EU is broken and the only people who are benefiting from the EU are the legions of politicians and bureaucrats employed by it, both directly and indirectly.
I disagree, if we pulled out of the eu you might as well take a shovel to this country and bury it. I have been made redundant in the past as a DIRECT result of not being in the euro, we could not export at a constant price to a German customer who made up 85% of our trade. They eventually went to an Italian company and we sank. Manufacturing is already difficult in the UK, our lack of export is because we have to add an extra margin in for currency fluctuations that our euro zone counterparts do not. We need the closest possible integration with Europe, as they should be the biggest customer of GB plc. There are other benefits, imagine if we had access to the insurance and mot databases for all eu countries. With nothing more than a barcode sticker in the windscreen the police could have the insurance details and owners details at the scene of an accident, even if there is a language barrier. All eu member states have similar requirements for road worthiness, so if a vehicle has a valid inspection in its home country and is insured its going to be safe. Spain suffers especially badly with this, as there are many uninsured and un inspected foreign cars on their roads, with British registered cars being the worst offenders by quite a margin. They are cracking down on it now, people forget you still need a valid UK tax disc even while abroad for a UK registered car, as it must be legal in its country of origin. Imagine how many problems could be solved if crossing a nations border involved an anpr check to ensure the vehicle has valid credentials. It would benefit everyone.
Yeah, but it's a good debate. I think the major problem with the EU and with people's attitude to it, is that no one understands (with the exception of Pete1950) how it works. It's like being given a brand new smartphone with no instructions when you've never seen one before. It is unsurprising that people don't get on with technology when no one explains how it works to them. If your government works in ways you don't understand, then you have no control over it. You may be able to elect it or kick it out of office, but you can't base these decisions on anything if you don't know how it works. The people in Britain (and elsewhere) really need detailed lessons (probably programmes on the TV) about how their constitution works and how Brussels works. It's no good just whinging about unaccountable bureaucrats if they are in fact accountable, but you don't know how to bring them to book. One of the massive advantages of the Swiss system is that although we might not understand precisely how it works, all major decisions are submitted to the people as a referendum (several per year), where you get a chance to say yes or no and don't necessarily need to know the machinations of how they got to the point of asking you. In a nutshell, the biggest problem is ignorance. This is actually a problem encountered in every political decision. Partial truths are bandied about, odd figures are quoted. No one really has the big picture and consequently debate is ill-informed and couched in Daily Mail terms.
one of the biggest problems for me is the empty field philosophy the EU uses - if there are no regulations, put something innocuous in there and grow it into something that wouldn't have been considered by the 'electorate'. Also, I suspect many people would have fewer problems with the EU if we thought that our views were considered by those countries we subsidised through our taxes. The view 'no taxation without representation' should be applied here. My view is that the EU is a construct that has overgrown it's mandate. It should look at itself very seriously and work out exactly what the peoples of Europe want, then implement that, rather than making some grandiose, artificial construct that no-one other than the politicos want.
Wrong in every particular, I'm afraid. The truth is that the EU has been extraordinarily successful, far beyond the most optimistic hopes of the founders. Europe has seen a prolonged period of peace, widespread prosperity and unity unprecedented in history. The peoples of Europe have much to be grateful for and most are indeed grateful. Every country will do just fine - unless they spend more money than they earn and incur debts they can't pay, and no system can entirely cure stupidity and greed. The bureaucracy of the EU are not "legions" but a tiny band, fewer than the civil service of Luxemburg, who organise the affairs of the EU with amazing economy. Don't believe everything (or anything) you read in the Daily Mail, it's just not true.
Ignorance is the single most important principle upon which modern "democratic" government is based. Very few governments (the Swiss would appear to be an exception) want a politically savvy and socially aware populace - the combination of which ultimately leads to an ungovernable population. Britain has a long tradition of feudal government, which persists almost unchanged to the present day - with parliamentary democracy** purely provided as theatre. The great divide that seems to have grown in the United States appears to stem from the clash of a tradition of libertarian ideals against the Democratic Party's desire to force a Nanny State upon a population consisting of a large number of people who fervently do not wish to be nanny'd. The various EU nations all seem to have embraced Government As Father-Figure to a greater or lesser degree. Hmm. As I type this, I have gone from feeling like a tongue-in-cheek iconoclast to someone desperate for somebody here will prove me wrong. :frown: ** parliamentary democracy is an oxymoron, discuss.
You can't argue the fact that Europe has enjoyed the longest period of peace for a long time. Long may it continue.
It's quite telling of the common perception of the EU in this country that informed statements are taken as "Pro European".
Well, that's what the Republicans would have you believe. The reality in the States seems to be that you have the choice between a right-wing government, or an extremely right-wing government. The Democrats hardly qualify as what the Europeans countries consider a social-democratic party. They just seem concerned to address the most iniquitous inequalities in the American system, with its disenfranchised underclass who have no right to health care. They also seem to think that the nauseatingly rich should do something to help out their stricken economy in the form of a bit more tax. It's hardly nanny state time (but if you looked at most American right-wing-owned news media you could be forgiven for thinking that it was).
