Sorry Derek, you are wrong on this one. Ask any British builder, they will say the same. Polish and other e. European workforce’s have driven the cost down, by doing the work for less, often with less skill (in their view). Ask the owners of building companies, they will say they are an essential workforce and support the shortfall in tradesman supply Fact seems to be the cost of work hasn’t decreased, yet brickies and chippies etc who work on site are paid the same day rate as maybe 10 years ago.
Would that be the same multiculturalism that Brexiteers have rebelled against but support when it comes to planting British people in Ireland?
You are entitled to your opinion but in my view it is you who are wrong. Sub contractors get paid to do a job, not a rate per hour. If they can work harder or smarter than their British counterpart then that’s their problem. I see it on a weekly basis, the difference in work ethic and workmanship
There are competing ideas here but there is little doubt, in my mind and based upon observation, that Poles and Romanians add value to the UK economy, with little, uh, cultural downside. However, it is being increasingly demonstrated that unskilled labour imported from abroad depress wages. You cannot pretend that free movement of labour is an unalloyed benefit for the host nation, whichever side of the argument you sit upon. Re apprenticeships: unquestionably. The UK's business attitude to apprenticeships and marketable training is lamentable at best and self-destructive at worst.
Go and ask on site at a large building project like a wimpy. Most will be hourly or daily rated, not by contract. Whoever employs the, may be, but they won’t. And this is the large volume of contractors; not the fleeas knocking up extensions and garden walls. We are talking blokes down the pub, not execs in the portakabin
Someone I know posted a link to an article along those lines. I read the article and it’s assuming they aren’t educated here and don’t have a pension here. Also assumed they don’t start a family here. Maybe it’s true for most, I don’t know, but it’s not that they contribute more it’s that they take less surely.
I think you will find it’s generally accepted as fact. As is the number of Poles going home likely to mean the stories house building program is not going to be realised
Any and all examples of multiculturalism are fraught with potential problems. You usually end up with multiple monocultures with the distinct possibility of friction and conflict between them, if values and mores are too different. Once governments start speaking in terms of multiple monocultures and stop talking about unicorn and moonbeams multiculturalism, then we might see a responsible policy for, and approach to, migration. At the moment, the UN and many countries appear far too willing to run blindly into an unknown, but arguably predictable, future. Alas, coexistent monocultures in NI for example have far too much history to have their issues easily resolved. And current "wisdom" see governments hell bent on creating more of these situations.
In regards to the poles, when Blair, the Labour chappie some conveniently forget when launching into the tories, when BLAIR opened the U.K.'s doors he estimated that it should see no more than around 8,000-13,000. To date, there are around 1.5 million poles and a further 2 million eu who have migrated to the U.K. In many ways, Merkel, did a Blair and for the "it's all the tories fault" immigration open doors just like university fee's, were introduced by labour.
It’s a real,shame we don’t take the opportunity to invest that money needed in real apprenticeships. Whether you are a UK 2nd generation on or born to UK of overseas parents or came here at schoool age, to develop skills we need must be the best way to combat the shortages. Unless...shotargages are because we want cheap labour. How much does a nurse make from Thailand? Does she/he make what a UK one does? Or are they at the bottom of the pay ladder... no idea but it seemed docetsr we’re being turned away because they didn’t make the critter for salary. Wonderful recruiters were bringing in Asian resource for under 45k.... says it all imho.
The healthcare examples illustrate my point perfectly. The latest Tory cunning plan is to charge nurses for their education. WTF? Thatcher devalued apprenticeships as soon as she took power in 79 and it’s been ongoing ever since. Compare that to Germany where engineering apprenticeships are sought after and take up to 7 years you can see some of the reasons why Germany still has a strong manufacturing base and we don’t
I used the word “plant” as it was often used in the book I read about the subject. The migrants were often farm workers
Remember the 80’s when UK tradesman went to Germany? Germany do a great protection of trade job that the UK seem unable, or unwilling, to do. I suspect it’s a combination of both.
you seem to be having a tory rant rather than a brexit one, Labour opened the doors under blair yes? Labour introduced university fee's yes? Labour introduced the term Hostile environment in regards to immigration yes? Why you no talk about these ? and could you explain the charge nurses comment, you're not talking about non uk nurses coming over are you?
Depends how you measure it. If you count everything, unless you earn over a £100k per annum then you are a nett beneficiary. Regardless of where you were born. Either way, the relative comparison still stands. I was born here. Always worked. Earn several times the national average. But my taxes don’t pay for my healthcare costs let alone contribute to the rest of the fabric of our society. If we lived in Rees Moggs dream of the U.K. i would be on the scrap heap. So we can only work on averages.
And here is a newspaper article on the subject https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....uk-since-brexit-vote-fuels-net-migration-drop
It is funny how some will jump back 30 years, skip the next 12 then its all Tory fault again. This malaise has been going for 25 years. Thatcher made every 16 yr old go on a yes or college. And the wage was shite. I know, I left school, 86 and had to do one. What was an apprenticeship with a half-mans wage and training was then turned (by employers, not thatcher) into a tenth of a mans wage yts. Wonder why kids did a year, then found a job doing anything that paid... The scourge isn’t govt: its the corporations who exploit govt policies.
[QUOTE="749er, post: 1239927, member: 643 But my taxes don’t pay for my healthcare costs let alone contribute to the rest of the fabric of our society. If we lived in Rees Moggs dream of the U.K. i would be on the scrap heap. So we can only work on averages.[/QUOTE] Really? You pay in, say, an average of 15k pa for 35 yrs and doesn’t cover your healthcare costs? I can safely say mine have. And plenty more besides.
This is where I get lost, going back to immigrants contributing more then, does that mean they earn more on average ? The bit I don’t get is how they contribute more
