Pure speculation,of course, based on the fact that only two things motivate people and companies Fear of loss Desire for gain That, and more than one engine type is fitted to most vehicles and many manufacturers build engines in one country and they get fitted to cars in another
What surprises me though is you would think the fall in value of sterling, along with the Government bung would easily overcome any financial issues.
Pm's fin, fin, don't ever offer 749 a job Well, I've said often if the eu had stayed as a trade body, as we were originally told, then this thread would not even exist. In regards to the single market and the eu, it's not on offer as a single lane, you have to accept all of the 4 pillars of the eu and the cost not just financially, is too high Very much like going on a one night stand and waking up in the morning with warm bodily fluids leaking from your genitals area but finding out the girl you slept with is called Lorena Bobbitt As the eu membership tends to be going in a direction that the majority of the U.K. do not want, I voted to leave, the same as the democratic majority that of course includes the single market, the eu told us so
Awful lot of thinking there me old buddy. "Some voted leave as a protest vote": You know this...how? "Some voted remain that have changed their mind": How do I know this? Short answer= I don't,same as you don't.(Well actually I've been told by some that they have but...people lie,depending on who they are talking to). Leavers haven't oversimplified leaving,remainer politicians have,(quite deliberately),over complicated it.The truth lies in those pesky WTO rules...refined over decades,accepted by almost everyone,in use Worldwide,(including by us,the EU,and Uncle Tom Cobley etc etc).So if we and the EU already have the rules in place,and importers know the paperwork,it ain't difficult.And for those who are not sure of how they fill in the paperwork,there are agents everywhere,who,(for a small fee),will ease the goods over the border into jolly old UK and vice-versa. Been doing it for years.Had my paperwork nicked out of the truck once,turned up at the border expecting hell to pay,agent smoothed it all through in a couple of hours.WITH NO PAPERWORK SUPPLIED BY ME.And that was back in the days of telex machines,payphones and the computer had not reached anyones desk. You also think there will be quite a bit of BUYERS REMORSE? Lol do you know the meaning of the term? I do...it's the mental tizz a buyer gets into when he's agreed/possibly paid for something but hasn't received it.That's why double glazing salesmen want your signature IN BLOOD on the night they visit,so when you get "buyers remorse" you can't get out of the deal.I KNOW these things,as I actually have a pen that writes in the customers blood. So any "buyers remorse",will be happening right now,because as leavers WE HAVE PAID FOR BREXIT eating all of the shit that's been thrown at us by remoaners,but WE HAVEN'T GOT IT YET!!! It's a shame you've taken such a negative stance over Brexit: you have absolutely no evidence that it will be a problem,and despite the fact that ALL of the problems.delays/vaccillation/threats/abuse failures to plan etc etc are 100% the fault of remoaners,you still feel the urge to play Nostradamus and claim knowledge that you cannot possibly have. Personally,I find it impossible to believe that a section of society can put their own selfish interests before democracy,the one thing that millions have fought and died for over the last couple of hundred years,and that they wish in your heart that the UK will fail outside the EU because it doesn't suit YOU...how fortunate for you that the 17.4 million haven't been going out of their way to undermine UK society for the last 45 years simply because a prime minister took us,(illegally and by lying as he admitted),into what we were told was a trading bloc but has turned out to be a full-on attempt to destroy nation states and democracy in the process. That's the thing with democracy. Fair minded,decent people understand it and accept the result even if it doesn't go their way. I very much doubt that,even if you became a millionaire in the next 5 years,you would admit to Brexit being the right move...anyone who can be so blinkered that they do not see normal,average French and German people marching against the wrongs inflicted on them by Brussels bureaucracy is never going to change their mind. Brexit will be a success. For 99% of people in this country,their world will be unaffected by our departure,except for cheaper prices and different brands in the shops. The doom mongers have had their prophecies dismantled one by one...Eurotunnel is ready,Calais is ready,HMRC have even admitted there is no problem,(VAT payments deferred and clearance onsite where necessary),Barnier has admitted the technology exists to remove the threat of a hard border with Ireland Grudgingly the EU have agreed that UK aircraft will still fly to Europe,Portugal has opened special lanes for UK passport holders,even the ECMT permits I've had to apply for to run into Europe are on hold because Brussels have suddenly realised that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS OF EU TRUCKS ON OUR ROADS EVERY DAY,compared to the pitiful few UK trucks going the other way because we won't employ cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Not to mention the lifting of 17000 + EU tariffs on everything from outside the EU that the UK consumer wants to buy,the £12 billion a year we won't spend to get £6 billion back,(as long as we spend it on German trucks for the British Army etc etc). I really wish you could pull back the curtain on your wishful desperation for the UK to fail as it suits your interests at the expense of millions of others.
Great advice, except why didn't everyone in the UK after the 1975 referendum embrace the EEC and then EU instead of drawing their curtains of of wishful desperation over it?
I presume it was directed at me. But it characterises the brexit debate on both sides - opinion dressed as fact. The result was to leave, which we are though it's not entirely clear when yet if the current mob in HoP find a way to kick the can down the road a bit. But is seems accepting we are leaving is not enough we must all believe it's a wonderful thing.
I don't think that's the case, it just seems to be that brexiteers seem to be more focused on the long run and positives and the remainers on right now and doom What I would add, most people will make a bigger leap of faith and hope for the best in a relationship, marriage, new job or new home compared to Brexit.
No, I was referring to Lightening_650’s statement that ‘people lie depending on who they are talking to’.
“In 1975, when the Government changed, Harold Wilson sought to put right the clear constitutional error by organising a retrospective referendum (something quite unprecedented in British history) designed to obtain the permission of the British people for Britain to join something it had already `joined'. Wilson's referendum was inspired solely by the realisation that the consent of the electorate ought first to have been obtained before we joined the EEC. The lack of legitimacy of the European Communities Act brought about the decision by the incoming Prime Minister and Labour leadership that a referendum should be held in preference to yet another general election. But, almost inevitably, the question asked in the referendum was also illegal since voters were asked: `Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?' The problem was that since Heath had ignored the constitution duties and requirements of Parliament and had signed the entrance documents illegally the words `stay in' were deceptive. We couldn't stay in the EEC because, constitutionally, we had never entered. We couldn't enter the Common Market because Parliament did not have the right to sign away our sovereignty. The referendum Wilson organised to remedy Heath's constitutional breach misled the electorate on a simple constitutional issue and was, therefore, itself illegal. (Wilson's referendum was passed after a good deal of very one-sided propaganda was used to influence public opinion. If the nation had voted against our `continued' membership of the EEC the political embarrassment for all politicians would have been unbearable.) ” http://www.vernoncoleman.co...
I'd gladly try a new relationship, marriage ... does it get me out of Brexit? Now that is opinion dressed as fact. Let's take it to it's logical conclusion, if we never legally joined the EEC then invoking A50 isn't the way out, we can't use the rules of the club we never joined to leave, since as non members the rules aren't for us. So parliament needs to rescind A50 and then repeal the 1972 European Communities Act or we will never truly leave the club we never joined.
We did.And we hoped that being members would be successful. The anti-EC sentiment existed before joining,but once in we got on with it. But even thought the sentiment grew as more people became unemployed,industries were destroyed etc etc,the vast majority got their heads down and went with the flow and kept grafting and paying our taxes. That's what decent democratic people do.They make the best of what life has handed them. And despite a growing resentment at sending British taxpayers money abroad when our public services were inferior to the countries who received the money,what we didn't do was: Get masked up and attack those who supported EU membership. Call people who didn't agree with us names,call them stupid,or racist,or anything else...they just had a different view. However,don't think that because we didn't publicly express our emotions that the sentiment had gone away. And when,after 44 years of membership,we were asked to tell the government whether we wanted to stay in or leave,we voted to leave,or at least the majority did. And we were told,(before voting),what leaving meant,that we would leave the customs union etc etc.We listened,pondered,drew on the benefit of all that experience,and decided that the majorities best interests lay outside. Had we been in the minority,we would have accepted the result as we did before,and got on with it...we wouldn't have wished ill on those who thought differently,we wouldn't have abused or criticised or tried to strike fear into them,we wouldn't have asked for a second referendum,demonstrated in the street...like the the decent,hard-working,silent majority always do,we'd have bitten our lip and carried on. And that's the difference between remainers like you and leavers like me. We accept a democratic result,you don't. We accept that people have a different opinion and it is as valid as ours.You don't. We know that we can't see into the future,but we are optimistic.You think you can,and are pessimistic. You want the UK to fail so it will prove you right.We just want the UK to succeed and hope you do too. We don't harbour ill-will towards our European neighbours,but you harbour ill-will towards your fellow UK citizens because they don't share your opinion.(That's called bigotry,by the way). I emphasise "Leavers like me"...I can't speak for anyone that doesn't think like me.(Another difference between you and I). Just one more thing. The remoaner-caused dogs-breakfast Brexit is going to cost me,both financially and personally.(alot more than if the Brexit we voted for would have cost me). But the extra effort,and the money I have to spend ,will be worth it,because it will give others opportunities that have not been available to them while we were in the EU. And maybe that's another difference between you and me. I've done relatively well,(without wearing a taxpayer-funded uniform,or sucking at the taxpayers teat),and if I have to put a bit back into the pot to help my fellow UK citizens,then so be it. It 's a price worth paying.
Lots of opinion there, which you are entitled to but a few bits that aren't correct. "We accept a democratic result,you don't." You are accusing me of something that's just plain untrue. Yes, I'm a remainer and I wish the result were different. I don't want a second ref, not because I don't believe it might overturn the result of the first but because the outcome could be worse - what if the result was 52% remain but on a lower turnout? I respect the result of the ref but that doesn't mean I have to be overjoyed by it. Dissent is an essential part of any democracy. I've worn a taxpayer-funded uniform (RAF), guess what we paid taxes and NI too, it goes in the same pot you were paying in. That was 20 odd years ago and since then I too have been lucky enough to do well, pay my share fair of taxes and avoid 'sucking at the taxpayers teat' - which is a horrible term, yes there are scroungers but to characterise everyone on benefits that way is showing disrespect to an awful lot of good people. The 'price worth paying' argument is a dodgy one. If it all turns out well then no harm done. If not then yes you might be paying a price, but so are a lot of other people who might not think it worth it - a price worth paying with other peoples money is more accurate. If I were a Leaver then that would be an argument I would steer well clear of. But what I really don't understand is why the continued bile? You won.
FCO 30/1048: Heath knew it was treason This classified government document dated April 1971 remained secret until it was released under the 30 year rule. It proves Heath's government knew the 1972 EEC Treaty would lead to the loss of sovereignty, and was therefore treason. They had a stunningly accurate picture of the EU, which never was the EEC (an Economic Community), expecting Britain to be abolished after the turn of the century. The authors, all civil servants or ministers, are very pro EU, their intent is clearly to conceal the loss of sovereignty. But they understood perfectly it would all be abolished. In public Heath's government all lied the treaty would not affect our sovereignty. This includes Douglas Hurd, still an active senior Conservative, who is also both a liar and a traitor, a point we put to him at the Conservative Conference in Blackpool. He assured us his connections in the legal profession would ensure he was never convicted. Here are just a few of the damning sentences: Parliament controlled 11. Membership of the Communities will involve us in extensive limitations upon our freedom of action. For the first time. Parliament is binding its successors. Increasing loss of sovereignty The loss of external sovereignty will however increase as the Community develops, according to the intention of the preamble to the Treaty of Rome "to establish the foundations of an even closer union among the European peoples ". Small threats to sovereignty, like Burgess, Blunt and Maclean's selling secrets to the Russians, attract 30 year jail sentences. The penalty for actually loosing even small parts of it until 1998 was "to hang by the neck until dead." King Charles 1st was executed for treason that was, by comparison, relatively minor. Lord Haw Haw (“Germany Calling” - William Joyce) was hanged for treason on 3rd January 1946. His efforts on behalf of Germany were tiny by comparison with Edward Heath’s. Our law subservient 12. (ii) The power of the European Court to consider the extent to which a UK statute is compatible with Community Law will indirectly involve an innovation for us, as the European Court's decisions will be binding on our courts which might then have to rule on the validity or applicability of the United Kingdom statute. The writ of a foreign power is not allowed under the British Constitution, which Heath was breaking. Predicting monetary and military union 18..but it will be in the British interest after accession to encourage the development of the Community toward an effectively harmonised economic, fiscal and monetary system and a fairly closely coordinated and consistent foreign and defence policy. If it came to do so then essential aspects of sovereignty both internal and external would indeed increasingly be transferred to the Community itself. No withdrawal, sovereignty diminished 22. Even with the most dramatic development of the Community the major member states can hardly lose the "last resort" ability to withdraw in much less than three decades. The Community's development could produce before then a period in which the political practicability of withdrawal was doubtful. If the point should ever be reached at which inability to renounce the Treaty (and with it the degeneration of the national institutions which could opt for such a policy) was clear, then sovereignty, external, parliamentary and practical would indeed be diminished. Disinformation After entry there would be a major responsibility on HMG and on all political parties not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures or unfavourable economic developments to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community. Transfer of the Executive 24 (ii) The transfer of major executive responsibilities to the bureaucratic Commission in Brussels will exacerbate popular feeling of alienation from government. Erosion of sovereignty 24 (v) ...The more the Community is developed ... the more Parliamentary sovereignty will be eroded. ...The right ... to withdraw will remain for a very considerable time. ...The sovereignty of the State will surely remain unchallenged for this century at least. The EU Bureaucracy will rule 25. The impact of entry upon sovereignty is closely related to the blurring of distinctions between domestic political and foreign affairs, to the greater political responsibility of the bureaucracy of the Community and the lack of effective democratic control. The writers understanding of the future of the EU was bang on. They wanted the bureaucracy to take over from the democracy. The loss of sovereignty was desirable for them, legally traitors working deep inside our government. With thanks to David Barnby. Who got the original documents. David Noakes.
You didn't write this then? " I'm looking forward to the third referendum, I hope 'hard join' will be on the ballot paper - full Shengen, Euro, ever closer union". Doesn't sound like you've accepted the result,and if you are looking forward to a third referendum then you surely must be hoping for a second one,(two comes before three). And the rest of the sentence is hardly wishing the country well,it clearly translates as,"all those things leavers voted to get rid of,I wish them to suffer in spades". WE accepted the result of political engineering and a referendum,(can't be called the first referendum,as it asked a question that could not be answered,i.e we were not members in the first place). Millions have patiently and resignedly paid the price for EU membership over the last 40+ years,this wasn't a,"dodgy",argument,this was fact. LOL it's no surprise that any disagreement with a remainers view is dismissed as "bile".We are used to it,any little dig or snide comment that can be slid into a discussion is to be expected.No matter how politely the disagreement is couched,the mere fact that it exists is enough for the sneaky insult. I don't think I was aware you once wore a uniform paid for by the public,but I've never yet met one that did,that actually *wanted Brexit.And I do know quite a few.And what comes across in our so-far light hearted discussions,is that public servants side with public servants,regardless of nationality.For those who,"suck at the taxpayers teat",(as ALL public servants do),the interests of those who receive public money far outweigh the interests of the people who fund them. So to paraphrase yourself: "But what I don't understand is why the continued bile and negative criticism when you say you are a democrat who accepts the result of the referendum in which your view was not shared by the majority of UK citizens who could be bothered to vote? You lost". * I know there are some,because they formed the Democrats & Veterans Party.I personally don't support that party,as I see no need to separate the fact that some supporters are/were veterans in the name...they are either democrats or they ain't,a persons career choice is not relevant to the party,the debate,nor should it be to their membership.
BBC2 inside Europe 10 Years of Turmoil Once again this is another publication (the other being Greekonomics) that inadvetantly provides the reasons why the EEC is such a hated institution. Tonight it focussed on the threat to the Euro posed by the economies of Greece, Portugal, Italy, and Ireland. Particularly Greece. Now, the background is that to join the Euro and be a member state there are rules that you have to comply with for prudent financial management. someone shoild be responsible for overseeing and enforcing this, and that falls on Tusk and Barnier. Now we all know that they completely failed to do this it was a total dereliction of duty to allow the PIGS economies to get so bad. So they fail completely and what happens, they call up the finance minister's of member States and organise not one but two bail outs requiring a fire wall fund of over 600 Billion Euros paid for by prudent tax paying citizens. The fact that the PIGS can't manage money is not my point. My point is that the Pigs with their snout in the trough can't mange the PIGS within the rules and when Barnier and Tusk fuck up they get someone else to make good their shortcomings AND they keep their jobs and continue instead of being sacked off. It's like when they recruit failed politicians like Kinnock into the club. This empire building and power grabbing (and incompetence) comes at a price too high for me to pay. TB
