I'm an angry man...another forum where the occasional "it's all the baby boomers fault" comment,is creeping in under the carpet.You know,the"these are the wealthiest generation/own all the houses/used up all the resources",and these people borrowed all the money,and our kids are going to be paying it back for years",bollox. Well it bloody well isn't our fault and I'll point out a just a few reasons why,at least from my point of view (1) Our parents grafted for pitiful wages and very often terrible working conditions,to give us opportunities they never had themselves.I'm not necessarily talking about direct financial support,I'm talking about being able to go to school until the age of 15 or 16.Your mum had the nipper and either stayed at home and became a "housewife",(a much derided term for a perfectly sensible and honourable occupation),or went back to work when the kids started school.Yes there were people who went on to University,and of course there were people who had money,but they were the minority. (2)This country was in debt to the Yanks since the War,and I believe it's only recently finished paying it back?.Germany and Japan got it's old industries bombed to buggery and then got them rebuilt with borrowed money from the U.S.Over here we spent money on setting up things like the NHS,which we all take advantage of today. (3)When we bailed out of school it was straight into work for most of us,no bloody "gap years",or "Internships":Your mum and dad had supported you through school,so get out there and start bringing in your contribution.Wanna go to Night School or College?.Do it in your own time and on your own money,Son,you had your chance. (4) Because we saw how hard our parents had worked,most of us have the same work ethic,but now with a bit of independence.And there was plenty of work,because we accepted without question a lot of the same working conditions and still-crap wages our parents had suffered.But with contraception there was no rush to get married and have kids,plenty of work and overtime so you could put a bit by,and reasonable healthcare so you could get back to work quicker if you got sick,things were much better for us.And we worked bloody hard to get our own place,and have our independence.Why? To prove to our folks that we were worth their investment,and so we were no longer a burden on them. (5) Pensions?.Both my father and my father-in-law died before they drew a penny in pensions,both after a lifetime of making contributions.Life expectancy for people born in the generation before ours was not as long as you might imagine,for the working classes anyway,and the contributions of the deceased went into the pot regardless. (6) Welfare benefits were paid to those who had paid in,not any tom dick and harry that fancied an easy life.If you went to the job centre to sign on, someone would quite rightly look down their nose at you and ask why you were not prepared to take care of yourself... Don't blame us if you swaddle your kids in cotton wool till they finally leave school at eighteen,have a "gap year",and spend god-knows how long at "YouKnee",getting a degree thats absolutely bloody worthless in the real world.I'm an employer in the real world,I want people who are prepared to graft/get their hands dirty/do whats necessary to get the job done,not idiots that don't know how to get up in the morning and don't realise that if they don't turn up,the customer will go elsewhere and tomorrow there won't be a job for them Don't blame us that you've bought the lie that you can have everything,and now you're disappointed/angry that you can't you're looking for someone to blame And don't blame us that you've got what you've demanded:an NHS that'll give you a boob-job because you have,"low self-esteem" :a world where few get there hands dirty because all your kids want to be a Web-Designer:and a world where anything that doesn't suit you must be somebody elses fault,and therefore you deserve compensation for it.You wanted it,start paying for it. Don't expect the poor bastards gasping for breath with asbestosis/miners unable to work because of whitefinger/arthritic lorry drivers who slept across the seats in winter time with no-night heaters and now doubled up with joint pain/farm workers dying before their time because of the weedkillers they've inhaled,to feel guilty about the little they've had I could go on......and on......and on......
I think history will show that the post war baby boomer generation were indeed the generation that never had it so good. They are also the generation that passed on more debt to the next generation than any other. It certainly wasn't the fault of the baby boomers themselves but it was a byproduct of the society in which they lived.
Good post Lightning 650-lots of truth in what you say.Might also worth mentioning that without us Baby boomers spending our hard earnt money lots of companies would probably go bankrupt.How many thousands do we spend with Ducati for example? Some good honest words Mr R.I left school at 16 and went straight into work,evening classes and the rest.I had to stop work due to illness a couple of years ago and I find it very difficult not being able to work anymore. Fortunately my two children do work hard and I do know a lot young people who are also keen to make their way.
I'm with Lightning 650 on this subject. I was at a Ducati dealers a month or so ago and a lady biker was there (weekday, so not working?) who had lost many stones in weight after being obese. She was telling us about her dieting regime which had enabled her to lose so much weight BUT she rounded it off with the fact that she is going to get a gastric by pass op on the NHS anyway. I asked why would she do that if she had achieved so much with her dieting and her answer was ' Because I've always wanted one'! To me that's a classic example of the younger generation. I give up! Where's my bike?
If they had it so good,it wasn't for the reasons you quote.It was because of Barry Sheene,Mick Grant,more new bikes coming out every week than you'll ever dream of,miniskirts,respect for your elders,and the Copper who gave you a bollocking for doing 118mph through Hitchin at 3am instead of giving you a ticket. Go to Liverpool and Bradford,see those back to back houses? People still live in them,it's not all luxury apartments in Canary Wharf mate. I've lived through it,worked with skilled men in factories who retired,and the poor worn-out bastards died before they're time,and never draw a tanner.And there are still millions like them coming to the end of their working lives only to be told they're better off than folk are now?Rubbish buddy If you are a post-baby boomer,go and see how your life expectancy stacks up with generations:then go back to your centrally heated house and play on the t'interweb. If there's problem with the current generation it's because they don't know how to enjoy life,no matter what they have.We had no money but who gave a toss,women would pinch yer backside at work and you laughed,not go running to the foreman asking for a claim form. And Friday was a youth club dance and a blast to the all-night transport cafe.Never beer,you could have beer or bikes money,but no-one I knew had both. Check out what you have today my man,and be grateful...not to previous generations,but because you live in a world of health and opportunity I'm going out to make a few quid now,give ET a bit of a rest.....LOLOL!!!!!!
Lightning. On the one hand you are nostalgic about the past whilst acknowledging that there was hardship and on the other hand suggesting that the current generation despite greater consumption don't know how to enjoy themselves. If that is the case then I wouldn't disagree with you. Life was simpler for the baby boomers, they lived through a time when employment was generally high, although harsh for some, and the introduction of the welfare state meant that they didn't have to worry about their old age. Final salary pensions were there for many and a whole raft of benefits became available to make up the difference for those who were not so fortunate. The current younger generation is the first in history where their life expectancy is likely to be lower than their parents. Getting a foot on the housing ladder is becoming harder and the average age of a first time buyer is now in their thirties whilst house price inflation has made the baby boomers asset rich. Cradle to grave welfare is likely to be cut back. Final salary pensions schemes are closing to new entrants. The salary pot of those in defined contribution schemes buys less and less. So sorry Lightning, the baby boomers really are the generation who lived through a golden age because the structural deficit, record debt and a government that is still borrowing £1 out of every £4 it spends will guarantee it.
I'm not nostalgic about the past:there were great times,and there were hard times. If life was simple it was because the dead hand of regulation had not stifled the life out of every possible enjoyable activity,and then squeezed every ounce of personal responsibility out of the workplace I'll believe that statistic about life expectancy when it happens:statistics can be manipulated in to read any way you like,but it ain't gonna happen. Getting a foot on the housing ladder didn't happen for me until me and the missus were in our thirties,same as for my mates.So I'd been at work fifteen years,as had my wife.If you don't start earning till you leave education at say 21,add that 15 years work,you won't have a deposit until you're 36 years old.So please don't expect any sympathy from me if you're 25 and bitching that you can't afford a deposit.Especially if you've been out on the lash every weekend while you were living it up at college. Cradle to grave welfare never happened.You got cod liver oil and malt extract to ward off rickets and polio or some such ,and if yer dad lost his job for slacking/being late/misbehaving at work,he better find a job tout-suite or the kiddies won't be having school dinners next week. My missus has got a final salary pension,working for local government:she got a much lower salary than if she'd worked in the private sector because of it.THATS where a good deal of the borrowed money goesublic sector wages went up to match private sector rates,but they still want the Public sector pensions.....You can't have both, buddy,theres only so much money to go around We can debate the finer points till the end of time,mate,but we'll never agree.I've lived through the period you think of as a golden age,but it wasn't.We made the best of what there was,in a way that people seem unable to comprehend now.And I wouldn't want be a kid again,adults want to hold your hand too much nowadays... And the money you bleat about repaying was spent on the capital infrastructure that you and your kids will enjoy long after we're gone...motorways/hospitals/sewers/railways/swimming baths,(baths?...jeesus I'm so old...),all that kind of thing But I'm also lucky enough to live through the times you are calling hard:where kids get have the opportunity to have a fantastic education,healthcare is available on every corner,you can start a business with nothing but a good idea and a wireless network,and there are many more opportunities to become wealthy betting with other peoples money,oh yes,and you even get some sort of unemployment/jobseekers allowance financial support from the day you leave school?.And you blame us for all that? Jeesus....some people are never satisfied... Tell you what,why not stop looking backwards at what you THINK other people had in the past,and start appreciating the things people have right now . I'm not saying another word on the subject,I promise!
I'm with Lightning on this one. Although we probably are guilty of starting the ball rolling in the decline of standards with our libertarian attitude. However I don't think any of us expected foul language, incivility and self centred demands and expectations to become the norm. I recall being told at school that one day there would be computers. These computers would work for the well-being of mankind and that everybody would have more leisure time as a result. So how come we have ended up working just as long and have become slaves TO the computer? I too could go on .........and on..........and on........ Edit to say......I'm not saying another word either!! Mr Angry!!
Don't get me started, left school at 15 to start work in the building trade on £3-14s a week and still working in the cold and wet at 60 ( this week timbering a roof) First mortgage with interest rates of 14%. Yes ET i could go on, been self employed most of my life with bugger all pension to look forward to. The building site I am on at the moment has 67 and 68 year old builders and a 62 year old laborer, there not out in this weather because the enjoy it. Steve
Lightning. How old are you, I assume you are a similar age to me and I am 59 in a couple of weeks. I grew up in the North East with ship building and mining, both now dead and burried. I consider myself to be at the end of the baby boomer generation. The youth of today will never have the benefits we had, but they will inherit our debt. My parents were public sector, teachers as it happens both from mining families, both took early retirement and 'earned' more in retirement than they did in their working lives. My father was a lifelong socialist who didn't understand profit, my mother believed it was dirty word, and firmly believed that he had 'earned' his retirement. He believed that the current working generation paid for the pensions of the retired, which they do, but failed to understand that as each generation took out more than they contributed they were passing on debt to the next generation, a giant Ponzi scheme.
I remember our first mortgage was with an interest rate of 15%,not easy by any means.However we got on with it,didn't have what we couldn't afford and got on with our lives as best as possible. Yes,as a baby boomer things are a little easier financially now,but like a lot of others we paid quite a chunk of tax one way and another and are now earning a pittance on our savings,earnt through sheer hard work.
I think thats why we have such opposite views,despite our similar ages,(I'm 58) My parents worked on someone elses farm.Ever wondered where the sprouts on your plate at Christmas came from?.They were hand picked at 4am in the bloody freezing cold by some poor bloody sod like my dad earning a fifth of what your parents did.And someone still has to do that shit,although there are machines to ride on nowadays As previously stated,my old man never got to draw a pension,but he paid his taxes and National Insurance every week,which no doubt contributed to someone elses. For the majority,there was and never will be the opportunity for early retirement,indeed for many people there never will be what your parents call retirement. If you earn very little,you don't have much to put aside.and the State Pension is a bloody joke,(until they find out you are terminally ill,then they throw money at you like there's no tomorrow....which of course,there probably won't be,for you at least) So you've hit the nail on the head:your parents took more from the system,mine didn't.you may think that your parents are typical,but they are not. So if you want to blame somebody for the debt you think exists,blame it on those who,(knowingly),took more out of the system than they put in.But don't blame those at the bottom of the food chain,(of which there are always a majority),for taking the little bits they genuinely deserve. You've given me a glimpse of what it's like to exist in your parents world,where even though they knew they were taking more than they had paid in,they still felt they deserved it. But the real world isn't the Utopia that some people live in.In real life if someone gets more than they paid in,someone gets less than they paid in. So now I see why you think like you do.But it still doesn't make you right. I said I wouldn't say any more,but I lied......like a cheap Japanese watch.... I
Ok I will blame just for heck of it Lightning not from here but what you described sounds similar to my parents. Thing is they kind off a bit also think like you about my generation but then my grandparent's were thinking the same way about generation of my parents and even worse about my one. It is just nagging of elderly as far as I am concerned. Not in a offensive way. To explain. Each generation has their own problems. You learn about them and try to change it so next generation does not have to deal with it anymore. Progress you know. Sometimes solving one issue creates one or more others. As result each generation has their own problems, solutions and when older reasons to nag. Circle or life. Fact is part of life is getting used to it and keeping quiet. Computers did change our lives in similar way to someone said above. But only for selected group and in process created more other issues. Automated production line so now people do not have to work on production line making cars where it can be dangerous. However same people now have to find other jobs. As result no one has more time thx to computers and robots as we all still have to make money.
Such bitterness Lightning ! FWIW I don't think we have opposite views, just different views of the same problem about which we probably do largely agree. As a society we have lived beyond our means by borrowing for so long that we think the solution is more borrowing, and maybe it is, just kick the can further down the road. We have been told that we all are 'entitled' to so much that we believe it can go on forever. As my parents son I would say they were very fortunate, although teachers are firmly middle income, as a taxpayer I am outraged, the public sector was very generous with other peoples money. Up till now if some one gets more out than they put in it doesn't mean that someone else gets less, although admittedly some people live longer than others, what has been happening is that the difference is made up by borrowing, which is why we have such a large national debt. We are living beyond our means, the structural deficit is not being addressed, that can't continue indefinitely and when it comes to an end it wont be pretty
The baby boomers are the generation that 'never had it so good' you could roll out of school at 15, apply for a job that you might have had to fight 3, maybe 4 others for then on an unskilled wage be able to comfortably support a wife mortgage couple of kids and a car. Your house represented about 3x your unskilled salary (a house was about £45k in modern money) and you could look forward to an easy retirement at 65. Fast forward to today, you need to be a borderline brain surgeon to get a worthwhile degree, which you will need to stand out from the other 200 applicants for a menial job. When you do finally get a job there are no affordable houses because boomers re mortgaged their cheap houses they bought 25 years before and bought up all of the first time buyers homes, to rent them out at an inflated price, creating artificial demand. As a result you have to try and mortgage a house that is now close on £200k (but guess what, you aren't on £60k) and there aren't any mortgages anyway as the boomers greed broke the banks. You are going to have to work to 70 or more because the boomers squandered the countries finances, and left us bankrupt through years of mismanagement. Might as well take a gap year, your chances of surviving in the UK are near zero anyway. You should walk a mile iny shoes, you would see things VERY differently...
Matey,the one thing I'm not is bitter.I'm a pragmatist,you are who you are,you do what you do,and you make of yourself what you can.Some people are born wealthy,some handicapped,whatever,will always be so.I'm luckier than some,worse off than others,and all shades in between But I don't like sweeping generalisations,no matter what it's about.And if you believe one section of the population caused the current misery frenzy,you're completely wrong. Heres a very short lis,because I'm a bit bored with repeatedly stating what I believe is obvious: Winston churchill for not making peace with the Axis,hence putting us into debt for years.(He was right to, btw) The Yanks for charging us a fortune for stuff with which to fight a World War,while pretending to be our friends but really hating us for being a two bob country that happened to once rule most of the world at one time. The Labour party in the Sixties and Seventies giving too much to the Unions.(note these were politicians born in an earlier era) Maggie Thatcher for selling all the council houses Tony Blair for buying votes from the Public sector and the Unemployed,by giving them pay/benefit rises the Country would never be able to afford. All governments for letting bankers run riot and get rich with our money Bloody bankers who get rich and then rub our noses in it Shitbag NHS bosses who become very wealthy by pretending to run the NHS efficiently when really it's a bloody disaster on wheels kept going only by some of the fantastic staff who work within it.People are bloody starving in hospitals for Chrissake...you'd be in jail if you starved a bloody horse.... Civil servants who claim to " serve " their country while in reality amassing wealth far beyond their value..."The First Division"?...how elitist can you get...Gawd all-bloody-mighty... And...and...the list is endless. Don't waste time trying to blame someone else. Get your head down,do a proper days work for a proper days pay,and you'll be reet. And so will your kids.
