The statistics don't lie but the issue is making sure when you compare them that you compare apples with apples. Secondly its important to remember that comparing race victories 40 years ago to now is practically pointless and certainly not anything remotely like apples with apples. The level of competition then was not anywhere near what it is like in the modern era. Well not for Agostini anyway, he had a machinery advantage for most of his career that is like putting spitfires up against the euro fighter.
You gotta laugh cos nothing stirs up a good debate more than Rossi and Casey. There isn't really this banter with Jorge fans, is that cos he ain't got any who are that bigger fans or just that Casey poles opinion more. I think Jorge is the man this year, he has matured a huge amount. If the new front tyre does hinder Casey enough to put him in the Cal, Dovi, Spies area in a race then i think there could be sparks. Did i mention his teeth are too white to be natural ?
Like your thinking on this TP - the guys who win on the roads and the tracks are the real aces in my book. I think I'd put Hailwood above Ago purely because Ago had the benefit of Agusta machinery that blew everything else into the weeds until Yamaha strokers and the Flying Finn came along. Then there's Phil Read with nearly as good a record as Ago on track and road and of course (Sir) John Surtees - surely still the ultimate petrolhead? Rossi's record is better than Stoner in Grand Prix and both are in my top ten but in GP terms they're both well behind Ago and Nieto...and both are a few rungs down from the real GOAT ;-)
I like him as a rider, what's not to like even a blind man can see he rags a bike, but he is not as good as JL who also has sensible teeth. If we all agree it would be boring and riders for health would not get TP's money when he loses our bet, but anyone who seriously is anti Casey (or Rossi) because he rides a bike should get a life.
Really? I recall on a certain other forum, many people that I see here now, constantly slating Stoner for Crashing all the time Not being able to set up a bike Not being able to develop a bike This was followed by Get Rossi on it, he is the Doctor and the goat and has 9 world championships. And so by that logic JL must be better than Stoner, yet most people outside the UK would pick Stoner by a small margin. And how do the Casey bashers feel about all those derogatory statements now? Do they stand by those assertions? I do see that in addition to cheese, they have added his teeth as the latest playground patter. I also recall getting pelters for pointing out none of the above was Caseys fault and Rossi would not be a success at Ducati. Hate to say I told you so but I TOLD YOU SO!
There are 2 camps in these dabates 1. those that will never praise Stoner or Rossi regardless, and they need to get a life 2. those that have recognised that the Ducati was not what it appeared and Stoner rode it well (that includes Jb and Rossi) I think quite a few of us me included have recognised Stoner was riding a monkey better than most so on that point you are right. Many of those complaining about Stoner bashing are now writing off Rossi far to premature imo so it not unique to Rossi fans. My personal take is that i am a bigger fan of Rossi than anyone else and the references to Casey's teeth is just banter. I would be disappointed if there were not retorts. We could qoute stats etc as to who is best but records only really mean something when you retire because only then do you have the whole picture. For me JL is the complete package, hence why i think he is a better rider than Casey. History will tell one way or another. For all we know JL might not be able to ride a Ducati well either or Casey a Yamaha so they all may have an achillees heal bike wise. Maybe one day we will find out but i am sure Casey's teeth ain't natural.
"Those who thought that the Ducati was not what it appeared to be" Which races were these people watching? The races I watched it was always a dog, with Capirossis, Melandris and Hayden's performances proof positive, in terms of final race position, and the Stoner wrestling matches/DNFs, as the icing on the cake. Yet every Sunday, evening, along came the Casey bashers, telling us he was not fit to ride it. Seem to recall those being IMOLA SPOONZ LUCASZ FIGARO GIZMO PAULSANT Still, I am still thinking positive, Valentino has proved me correct in being an outstanding T shirt salesman. Never let it be said I don't give credit where it is due.
I'd love to see a qoute where i said he wasn't fit to ride it. The bike had a clear speed advantage in 07 and that happens to be the only year he strung a whole season together on it. Do i think he is partly the architect of his own critics, yes. He is a bad loser, which is a good thing in that a top sportsman should never like losing but he has a bitter element with it. As we are into predictions, i predict you will see this more if things don't go his way this season. Does that make him any less a rider, no but that is why i am largely not a fan because it doesn't sit well with me or the fact that many Casey fans slate Rossi just because he is everything Casey is not off the bike. If the paddock walked around with a cob on then it would be far less interesting. It's bike racing but it's entertainment as well hence why Senna etc are so remembered so fondly in F1 and Edwards is almost universally liked is because as well as racers they were entertainers who made it interesting. The reason the Casey fans go on about T shirts etc is because it sticks in the throat that Casey is, nor never will be that type of racer. If you thought racing was only about what happens between flags then you need to look a little closer because more so now than ever, money is king.
There is nothing wrong with selling t shirts. It is a perfectly honourable profession. And legal too. Most of my favourite sportsmen are bad losers. King Kenny being top of the heap. Alex Ferguson Neil Lennon Martin O'Neill I like Ally McCoist too. Always entertaining and a happy chap a la VR, but is he not having a right moan just now! People should just be themselves. You don't find a "paddock full" or a "classroom full" or "a team full" of people with a Cobb on, or happy face or propensity to drink beer 24 hours a day, you get all sorts of people in all sorts of environments, yet some are not tolerated and deemed to be unworthy, in this case Casey Stoner being unworthy of Ducati, in the eyes of many Ducati fans. I wonder how many of those who slated him would rather have him back and winning races, or continue with the current VR performances? I would be interested to know. As for 07, people should go back and look at the season again. Yamaha took 5 of the first 6 poles and after 6 races Rossi was only 9 points behind. As the season wore on Stoners speed advantage reduced. He also continually pummelled his team mate. He also continually turned inside of Rossi taking a tighter line. What does that say about the L4 engine?
I find myself agreeing with most of that. Losing should never be something a pro should be happy about but you have to accept it with grace. Hasn't JB said the L4 is an ideal config. I don't think he ever said it wasn't actually, just others reading into the problem.
Don't know whether 'King Kenny' is Roberts or Dalglish but I simply can't like bad losers, or bring myself to admire it even in a professional. I hate the "2nd is 1st loser" mentality, which just generates sourness towards fellow competitors and the blind abuse of officialdom (Ferguson therefore routinely attributing every defeat solely to the referee) and is a corruption of sport itself. On the question of liking people rather than rating them, that's why people like VR and don't much (I don't) like CS - quite independent of rating CS (I do). One of VR's charms is his graciousness when beaten. His demeanour in the midst of his current travails, eg: Rossi still in a laughing mood - is the very reason people like him. (FWIW I always think these threads get fundamentally confused between the 'liking' and the 'rating': someone will say "I don't like Stoner", and someone will reply "How can you not, look at his record, he's brilliant", which is a different point.)
Derek oh Derek you were there all season wiping stoners arse for him. To have that sort of. Fly on the wall info. Love and peace man Had a couple of beers last night with some behind the forum wind up mates down in rainy cornwall. Now don't get derek on the tax fiddle folks lol
