Nah. They’re fine with wealth being distributed, just so long as the vast majority of it is distributed amongst them, their old Etonian mates and the rest of their elite backers.
And you think the multinationals who have exploited wealth distribution so unevenly are (a) in favour of staying in the eu to keep human costs down and profits for shareholders high or (b) brexit happening and them having to to be more accountable? The big money men want the U.K. to stay in the eu because the system they have now works brilliantly for the upper end. Next you will be telling me no eu politicians retire straight into the business's that influence the eu as a project
surely they would all be the fith richest nations then. surely we would all be on the same terms and conditions. surely we would all have same quality of life, and life expectency. surely they would all have tax haven status.
People aren't nations finail tut. Honestly, the blind faith some remainers have in the eu, it would not be a big leap to imagine them also being members of the Church of Scientology. I'll put this to you fin, If we are thinking environmentalism then the old days of ford dagenham worked. Everything was under one roof, cars, interiors, engines,gearboxes etc etc. Then the eu kicked in and we now have millions and millions of heavy boats and hgvs, travelling all over europe for parts, causing massive environmental damage that is easily avoided Why do you think europe does this? is it for the benefit of the people or for the benefit of the multinationals, the same multinationals everyone keeps moaning about when it comes to wealth distribution?
i'm in and out at the moment so I'll just throw this one in for now, even in the who are we bit, they even have a bannister from 8 new square, who ever they are https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/ https://www.economistsforfreetrade....19/03/No-Deal-is-the-best-deal-for-the-UK.pdf
If the yellowhammer document is worrying you, for goodness sake don't get on an airplane!! Just look what could happen.
I can’t speak for others but just for the record, as I’ve said a few times in this thread and others, I don’t have blind faith in the EU (or any other body). For example... I suspect some of its motives. Notwithstanding the clear terms of the Schuman Declaration in 1951 (“....ever closer union of peoples etc”) it de facto positioned itself as a trading bloc only and although the “mission creep” towards a wider political, legal and social union has actually only brought it closer to its original mission statement, there has been an element of duplicity in the way it was handled (but what does anyone expect when politicians are involved?). I’m also concerned about the “democratic deficit”. So concerned in fact that I wrote an essay about it when I did my LL.B. However, even leaving aside the potential “Yellowhammer” style fallout, I believe that staying in the EU is the lesser of a number of evils. We are a small country with a declining influence on the world stage and so the likelihood is that we will end up aligning ourselves in trading/economic and political/social terms with a major power, of which there are really only 4 alternatives to choose from - the EU, China, Russia and the USA. I’ll ignore China and Russia for, what I hope, are obvious reasons. The USA? In the last two decades alone they’ve dragged us into two long, brutal, pointless and expensive wars, one of which was possibly illegal. I find much of their culture crass and obnoxious. Their society is deeply dysfunctional and divided, particularly along racial lines, and I have a dog in that fight. The country is run by a man who is patently unhinged. Their food, environmental and employment/consumer rights/social welfare norms and educational systems are, in my view, appalling. In a way, there are many parallels with the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. I believe that notwithstanding its military might (which in some respects is negated by “soft power” and developments in technology where a country is now more at risk of cyber rather than nuclear attack), the US has passed its peak, its influence will wane, it is living on past glories and in the next 25 years, in many respects, it will be overtaken by the other 3 major players, and so think the UK should avoid hitching it’s wagon to it. Moreover, I was born British, but for the last two or three decades I’ve also considered myself “European”, and tbh I’ve often been embarrassed to be British, because as a nation we have tended to conduct ourselves like their chavvy next door neighbours. Our country is now an odd amalgam of ASBO-ville and Nanny-state, a weird hybrid breed of British Bulldog crossed with Chicken Little. In general, and increasingly, I find myself more aligned with the European peoples. I like the way of life and the food, and in general I find their societies, norms and their political systems to be, for want of better words, kinder, more relaxed and more “cultured” than our own, and certainly much more so than our cousin across the Atlantic to whom we seem to look for influence and inspiration.
You list four major powers, but omit the Commonwealth countries from your analysis. I would not suggest that a return to a “leading role” would be appropriate as the age of the British Empire is long past, but there should be some common ground for trade and political union with some or all of these?
I think that’s what Theresa May’s recent visit to South Africa and Kenya was all about, when in an ironic reversal of colonialism, a British tribal leader was seen dancing in order to try and curry favour with her African paymasters. While links with the Commonwealth should be maintained and encouraged, many of those countries are going their own way, and in particular have long ago forged trading links with China and Russia. If anything, if the UK stayed in the EU I suspect there’s probably more chance of C/W countries wanting to do business with us as it also gives them an “in” to a huge trading bloc, whereas outside it, we are just AN Other.
In someway I agree but despite this being mostly aimed at leavers by remainers, remainers seem to talk about empire more than any leavers. Yes we have been an empire and we have mostly learned from that. We have seen many empires before us and after us and none end well so just perhaps we are being realistic in not playing the game of let's see which bully we want to control us and are rather adopting a switzerland in ww2 style. Quality rather than quantity Almost daily there seems to be people beating our country up in some act of self flagellation about our past and so that's why I say the remainers are wrong. We are not seeking empire but seeking to be part of the world market and not fighting over the big chair. Not being the biggest bully doesn't always mean you have less influence To be fair, we gave the world, the krankies, towie, MiC, love island and stabbings in London, we are hardly the base model for gotta get me summa that I lived there on and off for 3 years and have visited for long periods also. The states does have issues, I look at the states and in regards to race, you could say states, I could say zimbabwe. There are in any country, politicians to use the racial divide for purpose. It doesn't help with the liberal democratics who claim to represent the blacks and the hispanics but only see them at election time but to be fair that is a u.s. thread more than a brexit one. Most are aware of Trump but most leavers see him as one part of the jigsaw, remainers see him as the only part of the jigsaw, we are looking to be a player on the WORLD market, we are not looking to be the big cheese anymore and because of that, we are more realistic about our future trading partners. America will be an important partner but they will not be the only one, we will have many that are not America. I mentioned yesterday that the eu were setting up a "department for the european way of life" and those in here supporting remain, barely battered an eyelid let alone comment. Can you imagine the situation had Trump created a "department for the American way of Life"??? How many remainers would have started reaching for the prozac and angry keyboard shouting racist, xenophobe etc etc, remainers mental balance isn't very balanced Could I politely suggest, if you feel you need to be a member of a political project to feel european, then perhaps your version of what a european is, is distorted. The U.K. has always been european, we are intertwined with europe and will always fond of most of europe. I do not need to belong to a eu management company to be european.
Agreed. One of the reasons Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc were here in force. No need to point out downturn in the industry etc etc., they were here in large part to use the UK as the door in to EU market place. Sat watching French news last week, I could not understand all as my French is still poor, but, 500 new jobs in France..with Toyota. With you all the way with alignment to Europe and not the USA both in culture, rights and racism.
Thanks for that Noob. It makes really interesting reading. I actually can see/agree with a number of your points but I don’t see how such a radical step of leaving, particularly without a deal, advances our interests
