How I wish that were true,(and I used to think it was),but 58 years on this planet,(37 of them self-employed/running my own business),have taught me otherwise. Lets say you want to succeed by your own effort. At the very beginning,you need finance.The more capital intensive the business,the more start-up capital you need.If you're from an affluent background,you will almost certainly find it easier to raise capital using assets or guarantees from your family.You may even be lucky enough to have made contacts at school/University,whose parents are in banking. If you're from a different background,folks living in a Council house,you are unlikely to find a bank willing to lend you start-up cash,unless you have substantial assets already.If you don't have those but still want to go for it,you'll have to start your business on a much smaller scale,or delay starting it until you have saved the assets. Either way,if both rich and poor boys have the same business idea at the same time,poor boy is going to take a lot longer to get started/ anywhere than rich boy,and he'll probably never catch up anyway. Alternatively,let's say I want to be a Doctor,but I live on a council estate in Sheffield going to a sink school staffed by militant teachers,and my folks are unemployed.Unlikely I'll get the grades to get to Uni,but even if I study really hard there is plenty of negative media comment on how much debt I'll be burdened with when I graduate...not a situation likely to be encountered by someone from a middle class background. Or,lets say I want to live in Windsor Castle,or Buckingham Palace,both funded by the taxpayer,(rich and poor).Just point me in the right direction to achieve that aim would you please? I doubt I'd have my own business if MT hadn't engineered things to give me a chance.might not even have my own house. But don't believe me have good a look at recent statistics which show two things: Social mobility has decreased over the last decade or so The gap between rich and poor has increased considerably We're going backwards,not forwards
Sorry mate, but I disagree with every word of that. even though I agree with some of it... You're right that better off people get a better chance at success, purely because they can afford to lose more in the start-up. But the same opportunities are still there, and they still take a leap of faith, no matter what your background. And obviously the wealthy can take a hit and still bounce back. Either way, the chance is still there. I was self-employed for years, had some good years, had some bad. I decided the stress levels weren't worth it and took a paye job, something I regret now. But I'm not at all bitter about it, I just learned to live on less. The chance is still there for me, but I choose not to take it.
The point has often been made that wealthy people can supposedly choose to leave the UK for other countries if they think taxes are too high here, taking their money with them, and that this would be detrimental to our economy. T he countervailing point is never mentioned - that most of those other countries also have wealthy people threatening to leave. And in the real world a lot more wealthy people from other countries choose to live in the UK than there are ones from the UK moving elsewhere. Mayfair and Knightsbridge are heaving with them! The system in which the wealthy could conceal their ill-gotten gains in low tax havens behind walls of banking secrecy is gradually coming to an end. Tax havens are being forced to allow disclosure (or face sanctions). And some who deposited their fortunes in that well-known tax haven Cyprus may be wishing they had been more sensible.
Jobs are created by people who make things, fix things, buy and sell things, and provide services for each other; and by the consumers who purchase and use things. The captains of industry are by definition people who don't create anything themselves, they just siphon off some of the value added by the people who actually do create. And the captains of industry don't pump much money through the economy - it is the whole population, as workers, earners, consumers, taxpayers, householders and voters, who do that.
Thanks for the compliment! I do try to be sort of reasonable, to voice opinions but not to resort to ad hominem comments... My views of high income earners are not hardline. As I said, I am only down on whinging high income earners. Otherwise I don't mind people earning lots - just so long as they pay their share of tax. What is the best tax rate? Thinking about it, I reckon it's like price elasticity. The only way you can know what consumers are prepared to pay for a product or service (and thus maximise profits but fixing the most advantageous price) is to experiment. The point is often made that if you tax the rich too much, they will all decamp elsewhere. True, surely, at a certain taxation level. Problem is, we don't know what it is. Is it 98%, or 55%? The only way is to experiment and watch what happens. That would be the pragmatic answer. I've had my own company, and hope to again one day. I am under no illusions as the the stress it generates, and how unpleasant it is when it's not going right. It is fair enough that those who take on those risks to add value, reap rewards. I think like some others on this thread, people resent those in professions where there are no real personal risks (er... banking??) but the rewards are nonetheless massive. Those who create businesses and employment should be highly regarded in the main. It takes a lot of courage and commitment and it usually fails at some stage, sadly.
The reality is that it's true - I'm an example of that and I don't earn as much as the rich. There's an opportunity here that people are missing...lower your top tax bracket and entice those disaffected rich to pay tax in your country.
I'm sorry, this is simply not true. What you mean to say is that the rate doesn't increase but the reality is they are taxed a lot more. And if they didn't, the country would be completely stuffed. Sorry, but you've completely lost me with this. I was going to say it's drawing a long bow but it's actually just you venting. If you can get that, out of this ... ...then, honestly, your entrenched position on this is preventing us from having a reasonable debate about it. That's cool, I just won't engage with you on this.
So doing business deals that create needs that are met by creating jobs, employing people who earn a wage, pay tax, spend money in shops etc etc, as does the big guy at the top on a much larger scale, that doesn't count? Some business decisions, and I'm using an extreme to make a point, can bring millions into a a community - and the guy or girl, who made that decision, is responsible for making that happen. No decision, no business deal, no need created, no jobs created .... Can you send me a link to your definition of Captain of Industry seems way wide of the mark. Overall I'd say some people have a very negative view of leadership/managers. I agree there's a lot of bad leaders and managers out there but there's also a lot of good ones who do great things. Let's keep both eyes open and recognise both ends of the spectrum and not just the end that suits our confirmation bias.
:biggrin: Hmmm ... not sure I agree after reading this: But I accept it could be because you didn't make it clear that you were referring to the whingers only. And even then I'll downgrade my opinion to 'very strong views' :biggrin: Excellent analysts could predict this very closely using freely available data. There's some very smart people out there, check out this site - Kaggle: Go from Big Data to Big Analytics We agree! Yay! I guess my general point was that it looked like everyone wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. No top 10% = no 90% of the tax take.
There is indeed a great opportunity here. It is an opportunity for the governments of nations to agree treaties applying roughly equivalent income tax rates regardless of location. That way the wealthy would not be able to choose whether to pay tax or not, and that would be a more civilised approach than some kind of insane cut-throat competition between nations.
I thought I'd explained my position quite clearly,but we're both reasonable people so I'll try once more: (1) Up to a certain amount everyone is taxed the same:for example if everyone earned exactly £100k,they'd enjoy the same tax free allowances,the same tax rates,and broadly speaking they would pay similar amounts of tax.It's only when someone earns substantially more that the tax paid on the initial £100k changes,i.e they lose their tax-free allowance and pay more,(on the first £100k),than the man who only earns £100k Basically,most people get: £10,500 tax free. £10,500-£32,010 taxed at 20% £32,010-£150k taxed at £40% But the tax free £10,500 reduces by £1 for every £2 you earn over £100k Over £150k you pay 45% I'm not an accountant,but I've worked this out from a Tax website.Any mistakes my apologies.But I think I'm broadly about right A bloke earns £32k pays £4302 tax a year,takes home before his National Insurance is taken out................................... £28k A bloke earns £100k pays £4302 on the first £32k,then another £27,200 on the next £68k,takes home before NI...............£68k A bloke earns £150k pays £6.4k on the first £32k then £27,200 on the next £68k,plus £22500 on the next £50k,takes home £100k And you think this is unfair????? Especially when you take into account the £32k blokes are doing all the shit jobs that no other bugger wants to do,and without whom we'd all be in the shite... (2) So,Once upon a time,a long,long time ago,no-one owned the land. Presumably most people used a bit of it to grow stuff to feed their kids,and what they couldn't grow they bartered and probably tea leaved from those who had plenty. Then some horrible Scroat got a big gang of thugs together,and went round claiming all the land,and making the people pay taxes to them.The scroat gave his most enthusiastic tax collectors some of the best land.a title etc,and made sure that all the rest of the people gave up money and crops so scroat and his mates got rich and the people had a horrible time. When the Scroat and his mates had got hold everything of value,they realised that the poor people were likely to band together and take all their land back. So the Scroats hatched a cunning plan. First,they tried to keep the poor people stupid by not letting them read and write. The Scroats then claimed to be,"special",and that they had blue blood and had divine powers Then,they cried,"We're civilised:it's illegal to go round knocking on heads and taking the land,so we'll get Armies and Police Forces to make sure you little people can't get back anything we nicked in the first place... Which is where we are today:Royalty and the Aristocracy have all the land and power,inc.allegiance from the Filth and the Armed Forces,to keep us all in check... I'm not venting,me old mate,I'm telling you how it is both here,and in many other countries You might call that taking action and making things happen.I call it at first thuggery,followed by the biggest con trick ever. (3) I don't have,nor has anyone else,the right to tell another person how to spend their money.I've not mentioned nor inferred otherwise I don't have an entrenched position.I'm explaining my position.If you can convince me that I'm wrong I will hold my hands up and say so.As I hope would you.After all,your position appears just as entrenched as mine... Christ almighty,I DO apologise for the length of the above...
Nothing at all! I got a bit tired and emotional trying to get my ST started,and tools were starting to fly... .
I have no idea what you're talking about, or what your comment has to do with the matter in hand. What I have said is simply that everybody ought to pay their taxes, which has been the standard, conventional position throughout the western world for a long time. Are you saying paying taxes should be optional? Please explain.
It was a comment relating to your apparent desire to embrace supranational organisations and treaties at any and every opportunity. Hence NWO, Bilderberg and Common Purpose all (allegedly) shady organisations with global ambitions.
Let me be clear, I'm not advocating reducing tax on the middle/high income earners - I'm saying leave it alone. Tax isn't the problem and far better economists than we have been involved in their development and fine tuning. That may be, but who is responsible for that? Let's also consider the number of people who's sense of entitlement prevents them from doing 'menial' labour and who fail to recognise that there's an increasingly Euro-wide competition from that as poorer countries have joined the Euro state, or whatever term is popular now. I've been back in Oz for a year and a half now (wow!) so I'm losing touch. Another view is an aggressive acquisition strategy in a non-regulated market. Both views have merit and, as always, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. As I said earlier, I have little knowledge on this subject and when you've used words like 'presumably' and 'scroats' you kinda lost me. What is a scroat anyway? There's a third option, how about I accept that I'm not going to change your mind :biggrin:
Where does this 10% pays 90% data come from? not saying it is false, just curious as to whether it is a fact of data, or a long-standing urban legend?
Scroats= nasty thieving bullying shitbags,can be rich/poor/middle class...but in this case I'm referring to people who were once violent thieves and are now Aristocracy.My point is that you cannot do what they did then,because the Law doesn't allow it. We aren't that far apart on the tax issue,and or lazy shirkers.But not everyone can be rich or a Fat Cat,because who would be left to fix the plumbing?.Nature dictates that some people have to be at the bottom...I just think that the world would be better if those people,(the hard-working lower paid),got a better break.Even if the wealthy had to pay an extra penny now and again. The UK is not a bad place to be right now,theres a bit of long overdue,"realignment",of the welfare state going on.And lots of us are still grafting/earning a tanner. You'll still be welcome when you come back....
