I think you may be under-playing the differences between the classes... Checa, for any faults he may have, is not short of commitment. And as for the GP thing, don't you think the two are part of the same problem? Ducati is in transition at the moment; electronic aids have cut deeply into the advantages of running a twin - traction and corner exit - so Ducati have to find a different advantage (and in GPs, what are the chances of a small Italian concern cobbling together a seamless shift gearbox?). And while Phillip Morris have been good to them in terms of sponsorship, I doubt they have much financial input into development. Ducati have to find another way, and they are trying. But it seems the die-hard ducatistas won't give them any breathing space to develop and learn...
I personally wish electronic aids would be severely reduced across all classes. to me motorcycle racing is the worse for it.
I still think it is interesting to see how they will tackle this issue both in MGP and in WSB. The Ducati MGP effort is particularly interesting, as they have come up with some genius ideas over the years, but they don't necessarily all translate into winning machines. I think that Fig is at least partially right as the electronics and TC have allowed the other IL4's to catch up, but the Honda is still a V4 as well just like the Ducati. But what is the issue here with the MGP project is that the bike won't turn in. You can see the riders can't hit an apex for sh&t! They don't even look happy running into corners. Then they run wide when they get on the gas again. However, the engine is clearly an absolute stonker - always has been. Incredibly powerful and they just try to work out how to tame it with electronics etc. This was the strategy from Preziosi from day-1 - build a missile and then try and make it handle. They have done that - and when that was enough, they smashed the records in 2007. Then, when the others caught up on electronics, the advantage was neutralised somewhat. But the Ducatis are often still the fastest bikes through the speedtrap, even though the two Hondas have sub-50kgs riders on board. They are still missiles, they just won't go quick around a corner. The WSB is a bit of a mess - not enough Corse commitment, a fundamentally new design that Checa openly says is "very difficult to ride" as it is so sensitive to changes, and daft restrictions designed to make the racing "fairer" - but Ducati have often had things rediculously in their favour so they can hardly complain about the current state of affairs can they?! Maybe the rules will be changed again. You can't have a restricted V-twin making 165bhp competing with IL4's and V4's making 210+bhp. Just silly really. Personally, I am disappointed that they ditched the frameless carbon fibre chasis idea on the GP8/9. Stoner acknowledged it was the best bike he ever had from Ducati, but that the others had moved on as well by then. But he said it was far better than the earlier steel chassis. However, the engine was yet again savage - and needed riding savagely to tame it, kicking the back end out with the front brake trail braking into corners and then pinned and pumping on the way out. No wonder only Stoner could make it work - that is a bit like "almost crashing" round every corner, every lap! But it's supposed to be a prototype class - to showcase the best engineering available - not just to satisfy Dorna objectives. The carbon chassis, the V4 800 20,000 desmodromic rev screamer/big bang engines - the beautiful bikes with twin titanium exhausts that were exquisitely made - they were all original and that's what this is supposed to be about. Ditching it all was a retrograde step in my view..... Other than that, there has only been the Honda seamless gearbox over the past xxxx years - the Ducati project under Preziosi was flawed perhaps, but was original genius at times. Hope they can find some form soon in MGP or WSB under their new more sterile team orders. Or Audi can throw some cash at some geniunely more innovative development.
851 v full factory rc30 and owo1 888 v full factory rc30 owo1 zzr750rrsp 916 v full factory rc45 owo1 zzr750rrsp gsxr rrsp 996 v full factory rc51 1000 v twin xxr750 sp gsxr750sp 999 v factory jap bikes etc 1098 non factory v all non factory 1198 non factory v non factory japs factory prilla bmw Pani full factory (yes it is kope and you know it) v jap non factory non factory bmw factory prilla See the pattern... Pani biggest cock up ever in ducati history of wsb racing. With the factory hondas and yamahas joining next year........top 15. Im allowed a opinion i hope ;-)
If you think those Bemmers et al are not factory kit Imola....:wink: I reckon its like me and jobs round the house; missus sees how poor I do and never ask me to do again. Ducati are playing the same game, mid season relaxation of the rules and boom back on top
Personally I think Ducati is a victim of its own hype and Pr department. The Pani was launched with great fanfair and with Mr bayliss towing the party line saying what an innovation it was, putting in fast lap after fast lap. "Fast" we'll it just ain't is it! To my eyes ducati has achieved success in wsbk by updating and improving each generation of its sports bike ie similair layout. Proven trellis frame design, updating torque and power delivery, coupled with improved handling? it seems a simple equation, they should have just stuck with that approach much like the other teams have done, basically just improved the basic platform of what they already had? The panigale I guess in a sense was such a radical departure to what has gone before it was always going to go one way or another I guess. i don't buy the checa sandbagging it argument or ducati holding back in the vein hope of favourable regulations being brought in mid season. I also don't believe Ducati's corse is leaving the bike out there on its own! It's the company's flagship super bike for Christ sake, in an arena Ducati has excelled in, they are no doubt doing everything to get it to work maybe it just won't? Perhaps instead of fruitlessly attempting to defend the brand. We should just accept it's Ducati's turn to have a poor machine this time round, the rest have all been there! It doesn't seem to have had a detrimental effect on sales, so who cares! One things certain though it won't be taking up a position in the racing area of Ducati's museum anytime soon!
Nor does Ducati. And thats the issue partly; Ducati SSTK is so good they dont allow enough mods to compete in WSBK
Ok wishful thinking perhaps, but I ain't a slave to the brand I have a bike that's it no keyring, mug, tshirt none of that shit! So am happy to criticise when and where it's due! It was much like last few years gp effort! It can't be the bike, It's Rossi he's past it etc, not trying argument! Yeh right it ain't Rossi and burgess and co with the red faces now! i'd be taking liable action for ruining two years of a racing career! It's ok to say the bike aint up to it, I can totally understand people leaping to it's defense but they've gone and got it so wrong with the panigale at present! So why just not agree its a poor machine? The counter arguments seem more like excuses, with more speculation than fact to back them up? Just my humble opinion! And in no way a dig at panigale owners, so don't round on me! I just watch the telly like everybody else!
But I don't think the evidence suggests its a 'bad bike'. At racing it doing ok in stock form. It's when the BSB or WSBK bods get hold of the rules it struggles. Or is it that the road version is do good it's as good as it gets? Ducati have defo gone revolution this time. But it was coming at some point. Maybe the Pani will be replaced without winning a world title but you'd hope the planning for the next stage takes out most of the negatives. Next comes evolution.
Seems to me that there are two possibilities: 1. The Pani has design faults, they are part of what it inherently is and the design choices that have been made. 2. It's novel and it will take quite some work to understand and hone. In which case, it is perfectly normal that it isn't up top yet - it just hasn't had enough development. The only problem with the second possibility is that that is what you'd like to believe about the Moto GP effort, but after the years of development, it's clearly a question of possibility (1). Having gone all radical and frameless again, who is to say that the Pani isn't similar? The jury is clearly out: it's early days. But when you do something a bit radical, you'd imagine that you were abandoning tried and tested solutions because you'd found something better. The alternative to that is to believe that your previous design has been tweaked as much as it can and something different HAS to be tried because you've hit the end of the dead end street. Still, people talking about a lack of stability of the basic road bike do seem to flag a surprising fault. Ducatis have never lacked stability in living memory. It is the price they are paying for increased nimbleness?
Bradders, your right evolution was always coming, but have they gone too radical too soon, and the others have sat back and said "oh yes' very pretty Bolonga" Fuck it we'll just go faster! i haven't taken great deal of interest in the panigale really! But I always thought Ducati's ethos was to build each years race machine then present the road bike and the amalgamation specials R's Sp etc. to me it seems they launched the bike then bolted some corse pieces on and presented it as this years race effort, maybe it is at the limits of its performance and as you say may even be retired without a wsbk title or indeed win! Or podium! Sacrillidge indeed.
The Panigale (to me at least, as an owner) is a slightly schizophrenic bike at this point. 1. It has an unbelieveable engine for a twin, it spins up so fast it is very quick. If the WSB bike is slow, that's the restrictors as the stock engine is not slow! 2. BUT - they are trying to make the savage/rough/powerful engine rideable with electronics, and the chassis is very quirky to setup. So, to date, I have struggled to set mine up, but am trying again this year. Last year it didn't work. It isn't inherently stable like Ducatis of old, it is very agile/unstable by comparison. But the difference it made to the bike when Ducati launched version 2 of the ECU map (which transformed the bike in a positive way), just goes to show you how much work goes into controlling that engine and how sensitive the bike is to changes in engine mgmt/electronics. It doesn't sound too dissimilar to the MotoGP story for the last few years really, a quirky chassis, phenominal engine which they try to calm down with electronic systems. Hence, the people not running Ducati software struggle even more, but even for Ducati it isn't quite working. I want to see them start winning, if only because then whatever they do to the bike I can learn from, copy, pinch as a good idea to get mine working! Starting with whatever is version 3 of the engine map that they will no doubt develop in time...... At least it's pretty. S1000R's are fast, but I don't want one! Wrapped up in a frameless design is an interesting concept, but it has yet to be seen (time will tell) if this is a flawed genius design or a workable concept.
