I have the impression that Scots do not care at all about separating from Wales or Northern Ireland, only about becoming independent from England - hence my carefully chosen wording. But feel free to share with us any evidence that I am wrong about Scots v. Wales/NI.
where does it end lol... I call on all the people of Northumberland to rise and breakaway from england and Scotland. we can become a principality and I formerly offer to be the ruler.
Northern Ireland doesn't really figure in the discussions on independence as they have their own little political issues over there... People talk about independence from the UK, from the Westminster parliament, etc. Wales is part of that UK, that's about it. Just doesn't figure.
It is a highly relevant point, as far as I can see. Whatever case there might be for Scotland to separate could just as easily be made for Shetland, or Cornwall, or Pimlico. Is there a real advantage to the whole of the UK for it to remain an integral whole? Or do the people of any part or segment of the UK have the right to split, if they believe it is to their advantage [Note - their advantage, not everyone else's]? If you believe the cake can be sliced up, why can it not be sliced into smaller and smaller pieces until the nation disintegrates altogether? Would that be wrong? Where do you draw the line? That is no red herring, it is the main issue here I think.
Apologies, I thought you were throwing up the old lie I've heard from many an uninformed pub bore that on independence the Shetlands will want to go their own way too, something not backed up from the Shetlanders I've met. It is to the advantage of people in Scotland to leave the UK. It is not to the advantage of the UK to have Scotland leave. People have the right to go their own way when they have a democratic mandate to do so, and the SNP administration in Scotland has achieved that and thus has the right to carry out their manifesto commitment and hold a referendum. I believe the cake can be sliced up, and should be. If I was English, and lived in the North, Midlands or SW, I'd probably want London and the SE to go its own way as the UK governments (intended plural) successive economic and social policies consistently favour the economies, industries and lifestyles of London and the SE - focusing everything on London and its commuter belt and 'The City' in particular. There's probably a minimum sufficient size for the nation state, but when places like Liechtenstein and Andorra exist, the countries in the British isles have a long way to go yet!
Actually, having grown up in Glasgow, I'd be delighted to not be associated with Northern Ireland to be honest, but that's a whole other story.
You probably wouldn't. The SE has all the jobs and makes all the money. Take that away from the rest of the country and you'd have very poor independent states. But what is wrong with federalism? Personally I like it. Here in Switzerland all the cantons (about the size of counties) raise their own taxes, have their own police, schools etc. It hugely reinforces regional identities and roots at the expense of rather more red tape. But it makes governments far more accountable as they are local and have to balance budgets. The Confederation looks after foreign policy, defence and stuff affecting the country as a whole, but the cantons have most of the power for the day to day affairs. And the Confederation is the sum total of the cantons, not an independent super state. There are two Parliaments in Switzerland. In one house the members are proportional to the populations of the cantons, in the other it's a straight two people per canton, so that tiny Appenzell has the same clout as Zurich. The system seems to work pretty well. So what about a federal UK? Do away with the Lords, keep the building and have a couple of representatives by county. And in the Commons, elect MPs on county constituencies, with membership proportional to their populations. Repatriate much of the tax to the counties for local distribution and get power back into the hands of the people.
As a London resident, from a purely selfish point of view I say "Independence for M25land!". The rest of the UK would obviously be very much the poorer as a result, but hey who cares? So long as we're all right, eh? Boris for President.
I am in favour of independence because it will improve the lives of people in Scotland. We've had rule from Westminster since 1707. Westminster rule is not working to improve the lives of people in Scotland, and hasn't done for some time, so it's time we left. Are you taking that to be an "I'm all right Jack" attitude Pete?
Thinking of another thread, if Boris was PM, I bet UKIP would disappear. Boris is a far better media bet than Dave and would be likely to draw far more voters. The hideous Farage wouldn't stand a chance against Boris.
as a born and bred Londoner (now an immigrant to the glorious east midlands) i must admit that it used to annoy the hell out of me that most or our taxes (London), used to make their way out of the city and up to Newcastle etc... London is a unique city within the UK as it is truly a world city, arguably the only world city in the UK...i think that the perception of those outside of London, or those who have never lived there, think that everyone is a millionaire, in banking or related to the Queen...The reality is that London is home to the richest and poorest in the land...the overwhelming majority are the latter, and some of the poverty in London is Dickensian..i know many other cities have very poor, deprived and crime ridden areas....where i live, Nottingham, was once known as Shottingham because of its spiraling gun crime, but in London, its the sheer scale of the poverty...some districts being larger than many provincial cities and towns...London ISNT the city of westminster (a totally separate state from London..a city within a city, much like the Vatican)... The standard of living is far lower in London and the cost of living much much higher...of my remaining family who havent left, not a single one owns their own property for instance, and it isnt for the lack of trying..the mental cost of housing means that many Londoners (born and bred for generations) have to leave, splitting up families and eroding communities. Im proud to be born in the sleepy hamlet of Lewisham, all of my relatives for centuries were born and died in East and South East London. if the tax raised in London went to the poor districts then that would be of greater benefit to the country as a whole..what happens in London affects the entire country, and new laws and traffic restrictions happen there first..bus lanes, congestion charges, CCTV..it all happens there first... The tradegy is, working class people have struggled to survive, but as soon as the Olympics came to town, the money poured in and the people were pushed out...shit holes like notting hill and Camden have become trendy and the locals are priced out of the market..next thing: Kevin McCloud is filming Grand Designs... i dont know where im going with this so im signing off.
Ar the debate moves on. Why don't the English want the UK broken up? United we are stronger, divided we are conquered. Maybe the UK is an old fashioned view of the world? Maybe the 4 countries can now stand alone, in their own, and fight amongst the global market? Unite Ireland? Providing of course the immigration borders are established, the currency is arranged accordingly and non-England countries don't expect future parachute payments ala UK and Empire with India etc, maybe it is time to let it go....cant wait to see how much share of voice Salmond gets in the EU or with USA, or China, or Russia, and how much they pay us to protect them from bad people without an army or arms etc. tbf I am not bothered one way or the other, long as it doesnt cost me EVEN more in tax
Will say it again....Vote independent Surrey............. But will also say that PR doesn't work(seems many countries like Italy have not had the best of times of late,like decades) Submarine bases in Scotland(look at the demographics !!) Independence(most that have,have not prospered) Trust the voters(trust them to be manipulated for other gains and not for the right reasons) By all means try to get the best position posible for oneselves but history has shown that this doesn't happen and in most cases,has left many in a worse situation. Make a case for special terms(some might say that this has already happened but not a closed door yet) And finally why?? Mmm,thats a good question which many have drawn conclusions about already..............
Not once since WW2 has Scotland influenced a general election, so for a start democracy elimination of Westminster style politics, its outdated and destructive. No more crazy projects like trident no more illegal wars. no more world policeman no more nonsense like the bedroom tax. I am 40% taxpayer and from April I pay less tax when those who are worst off are being subjected to an inhumane and ludicrous policy which makes no sense. Unless of course you see suicide as a means of reducing the benefits bill. as we will be entitled to 8,4% of the armed forces (well of everything really) we will actually be able to defend ourselves. Unlike what happened when the Russian fleet sailed up the Moray Firth a few months ago and the best the Royal Navy could do was send a ship from......Portsmouth. It took 24hours for crying out loud. How useful was trident then. Fucking useless. no more nuclear subs left to rot just across the river from Edinburgh. they will be many more, but the real beauty is, as my ENGLISH girlfriend always says "why would you let someone else run your country" so how about dignity and self respect. What are are those worth.....Colz, got a number in mind? £100 a year each? £500 a year each? How much?
Bradders, maybe should go check the UK governments figures. There are only 3 parts of the UK which generate a surplus. London, SE England and Scotland. The law does not recognise abuse from one white person to another as racist. It's the legal definition. lastly, English people who live in Scotland do not get charged for university. independence is not about about where you were born, its about where you live and ensuring that Scotland gets democracy. The way things are at the moment, we are wasting our time voting in general elections. It makes no difference. It's the same as living in communist Russia.
but thats the same as living in england (newcastle) we vote and it makes no fuggin difference. its not the independence thats the issue. its the arses that run things for themselves.. if independence is meant to happen im sure it will
