It's time.. I feel I haven't p*ssed off enough people yet with my 999 project , So its time for another crack! Unfortunately this one isn't already built, and won't be for many years, So you fellas will be able to warn me before I do something extra stupid! But so far, heres the idea... I plan to use this as the dissertation project for my degree in motorsports engineering, to design and hopefully build a chassis for a 1299s engine I have. Why a pani? A few reasons; 1) They're mental 2) 116mm bore! 3) The university has one. A really really fancy one 4) it has a very simple chassis Above ridden by Micheal Neeves for a MCN article, This particular bike is the brainchild of a friend of mine for his dissertation project based around measuring steering (torque) input for a bike. So I have quite alot of data on the bike and what a Panigale does around a racetrack, not just dynamically but also electronically. Which leads me onto the next part of the project, I'd really like to have advanced rider aids on this project. Partly because I'm not Dovi and partly as its something I haven't really jumped into too much. Ideally Motec M130 if I can find one with a package for a Ducati, I contacted them and they currently don't! Or the highest level of standard stuff I can find, the standard bike as you are probably aware is already very sophisticated. Its just not easy to modify. The looks of this project, unlike my 999 project are secondary to the performance. My 999 is actually very very nice to ride, But the basic structure hasn't been messed with.. I simply didn't know enough when I made it about COG and geometry, I still don't! but I never let a bad idea get in the way of good story!
Woo hoo, I've been waiting for this to start, lovin your last project, mint attention to detail, lots of photos please - LOTS
Its with UWTSD, only folks who do a motorcycle specific degree. http://www.motoeng.com/motoeng/Motorcycle_Engineering.html
Not sure about the Motorsports academy, not really looked into them although I've seen the adverts. It's basically a mechanical engineering degree with modules specific to bikes, which is good considering the bike market in the UK!
It's all online which helps with me having a full time job. Plus you can gain work experience with their own race team. Obviously I would like to work on bikes. Too late to change course?
Some thinking has been done... First of all, I think I need a 1199/1299/899/959 frame to make a negative jig, Either I need to borrow one for a few weeks or buy something like this; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Panigale-899-1199-Main-Frame-Chassis/114232535306 Although I really really really really.....really, need the frame to be straight and undamaged. So if anyone some how has a near brand new chassis laying around on a shelf please get in touch! Although I fear the only folks who would have a spare chassis are racers! From the frame I can take measurements for mounting points / non-designable regions and use Solidworks topology optimisation to come up with a 'trellis' alternative to the cast aluminium OEM frame. I thankfully have throttle bodies so I at least have an idea of where the designable region can be, to not obstruct the airbox / throttle bodies. Ideally I'd like to try and make a few chassis's from the negative jig; 1 - a steel alternative similar to that of Pierobons X85R 2 - Similar to above, except using silicon bronze brazing rather than 'regular' tig 3 - An aluminium 4 - A Titanium one, This will really depend on how cheaply I can get the headstock machined. I'm not holding my breath. (Pierobon X85R - https://www.pierobonframes.com/en/product/panigale-v2-899-959-1199-1299-trellis-frame/) The question for me is, What am I actually trying to do - Make a better a more compliant chassis? Reverse engineer what Ducati have done? See what the effects of material have on chassis 'feel'? ..I'm not really sure, I just like to do stuff and this project fits in with my degree anyway. Although this all started with really questioning what 'feel' actually is, I have an idea now but I'd love to learn more. Also, I have an idea of what I'd like the bike to look like; I like the front fairing of this bike and bellypan/rad guard type thing. Hopefully use some v4 street fighter parts too! And I adore the tail section of the GP13! Just need to find something similar... or make it!
Bit of an update! I'm pretty full on designing the new chassis, should hopefully be ordering matierials before the end of the month/start of December. I thought some of you may like an insight to the process I've taken to redesign the chassis, I'd firstly like to point out that im not trying to improve Ducati's design. Arguably the V2 chassis hasn't been a success, since the switch from the trellis, corse has failed to win a world superbike, and even the two BSB championship wins went down to the last race. The problem with developing a chassis, is you need a problem to solve.. Can i find the limits of a panigale? Definetly not, and I can't afford the datalogging equipment to measure any nasty chatter or harmonics creating in various dynamic situations. This project is simply a bit of fun, and an excuse to learn what makes a good chassis, which I consider the 899 to 1299 series to have. The monocoque design is pretty much taken right out from the GP9 and modified to fit the V2 engines (https://newatlas.com/ducati-desmose...togp-win-for-carbon-fibre-construction/11456/). As you may be aware to handle 280hp the motoGP chassis are stiff, very very stiff. They're setup for more of a point a squirt technique rather than a proper well handling motorcycle, contrary to believe.. I reckon the best handling motorcycles are past us, and we're getting into the age of electronics. Anyway, coming from the motoGP i'm expecting the chassis to be very very stiff, According to motorcyclist online the Desmocedici RR's (also motogp derived) chassis was 85% stiffer than the outgoing 1098 (im not sure in which mode they mean), I assume the panigale to be even stiffer than that. So its not impossible to have the expectation that the panigale has will be 100-150% stiffer than a mid 00's superbike. I started with making a very basic cad model of the chassis that isn't very accurate; I would need a 3D scanner to make an accurate enough model to get decent results from FEA simulations, but I knew i was going to be able to get one of those so, and I wasn't planning any FEA on this model. I needed it for topology optimization, for those that get scared by those words.. its quite simple. You essentially tell the software to make the model able to withstand a certain load (forces involved with braking for instance), You then tell it to remove all under stressed matierial to save weight. You end up with a model that looks like this; The above shows a rough estimate of the matierial needed to support a 1199s under maximum braking load, and the below model shows the same however supporting torsional loads; You're probably wondering the same as me, absolutely no chance willl the frame survive anything with all that matierial removed from the headstock. My mind was completely changed after I seen one of Suzuki's published papers on the redesign of their motoGP bike frame, which is exactly that! (i don't really want to post pictures as im not sure if its allowed, heres the link (https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2015-32-0839/)). But I can show you this crashed GP19!; And you can clearly see the lack of matierial in that area.... Topology optimization proved correct! So my plan is the use those 'load paths' from the topologically optimized chassis (look at me with the big words!) to design a trellis chassis, Thats my plan for the next couple weeks, not really started yet! What I have started is measuring the stiffness of the frame. I started by making a jig to lock the headstock completely; Its probably difficult to see, but I'm essencially using a sissor jack with a scale under it and about a million DTI's to compress the chassis to determine how much force it takes to displace the chassis a certain amount, that will give me what is essencially a spring rate. Its important at this stage to realize that the chassis is exactly that, a spring. I assumed the way the world is I wouldn't have much access to the workshop in Uni so I bough a surface plate and cracked on at home in the garage. Without a CMM I had to find things out the black and white way I also learned why water cooled tig torches are a thing, my lil' machine struggles at constant 200amps welding 10mm plate. Above is the deflection of the chassis in the longitudinal direction (think of braking.. the front wheel is trying to bend the chassis back towards the bike). The gradient of that line is essencially the spring rate of the chassis in that axis, 'What line' will be the next question. Each line represents either the left or right side of the chassis at the measured point, and which test it was, above shows three tests with some averages thrown in, they appear to be all over the place! This is when you realise how little chassis's actually move, the Y axis (up and down) shows the movement in milimeters, which is why its so difficult to measure this accurately, It barely moves. With an equivalent weight of around 250Kg up its arse, it only moves about 0.12mm, thats 12 hundredths of a milimeter! The frame will see more force than that with shock loads, slamming down wheelies..etc. I estimate that the chassis is around 120 to 200% stiffer than a mid 00's sports bike, don't quote me, I don't have a clue what the hell im doing... just playing at it! Thats only one measurement, there isn't a standarised method of measuring motorcycle frames but its fairly well documented. I'll be doing a torsional test and lateral test also, I'll use the stiffness values from those to design my chassis with the same amount of deflection as the real chassis. Normally you apply forces around the swingarm pivot, but im trying to directly compare chassis, the flex of the engine is not of any importance to me just yet. As said earlier, the chassis acts a spring but with no damper like a suspension system, it only has the natural damping properties of the matierial, which is what I hope to investigate with the alu, steel and titanium. The whole reason I'm doing this is that I'm a little obsessed with the 'feeling' of a bike, I used to think it was the deformation of the forks/swingarm/chassis that you can feel, I don't believe that any more. I think its more based around harmonics and the modes of vibration various components have. The current plan is to have three chassis, one aluminium, one steel and one titanium. I'll keep you posted! Can't figure out how to delete the photo above, its not letting me rotate it either.. if you're interested its the center of gravity compared to a rs250 aprillia.
Just noticed that that post was far to boring for a forum, here's a wheelie at knockhill on the 999 to spice it up
This thread looks to have the makings of being seriously interesting, technically far beyond my poor old brain's capability, but providing there are plenty of pictures I'm in !
