Kope, Interesting to read your updates, and I am glad you are having fun with the bike and the development. It seems you are enjoying working out the nuances of the bike as well as riding it - good on you! Am interested to hear your view on the electronics again - and I have also spoken to Steve since they started developing their bike. From the day I got mine though, I could tell that the issue is controlling the engine characteristics with the electronics. Even the street bike version is struggling, and it could take some time. Clearly a programable Superstock wiring loom and ECU would be a good start, but I am not using my bike on track so that's not an option. However, all attempts to get this engine to make MANAGEABLE power in a consistent way, in a reasonable rev range is the issue. It destabilises the bike when the power kicks in. The bike works well on nil power (it is good on the brakes) or 100% throttle. But is dog rough and inconsistent in between. The engine is savage - I bet your R engine is even more edgy, but even the S I have has a very quick but "harsh" engine. Therefore, too much is being asked of the electronics. I agree that a great deal of control can be added by whacking the EBC up to level 3, i.e. loads of intervention/reduced engine braking - which makes you run on into corners like you are on a two stroke, but it means that the pistons are allowed to move a little more easily with reduced vacuum pressure - which not only helps off gas, but smoothes out the throttle response a little all the time as you always have some vacuum pressure - which is relieved by EBC level 3. But even the revised mapping I have tried, and the various other teams have tried, gives a harsh response from the engine - and with such a chassis, it's hard to get this to work well (yet). But although Ducati Corse are struggling, the bike is still quick enough to hang with the frontrunners, and Steve is within 1 second of pole, so it's not a slow bike. But it's not an easy bike to ride like this...... I also have a Desmo, and despite the similar frame/chassis architecture, the engine characteristic of a silky smooth smaller piston V4 and the fantastic throttle/engine control ECU mapping, means that bike is so much easier to get the power down with. It would just mince the Panigale I have on track, or anywhere else frankly. I am optimistic that they will find a way to make it work better. It's an engineering marvel, but hard to ride. I think that is the Preziosi signature. They made all their engines savagely powerful, and then tried to calm them down and make them rideable. 1199 appears to be the same, and is yet to be calmed! Hope they manage one day. I personally think that it is going to be hard to tame those huge pistons and make the fuelling smooth and predictable without some magical electronics. Will it actually be possible, or will it just be "better" than it is today...... When you first roll on the throttle, it is still rough compared to other bikes - which makes it hard to get on the gas mid corner - and as you say, the full power option is reserved for 70% throttle openings to also try and tame the engine delivery......
Between you and Kope this thread is just brilliant. I am still running in my R in Dubai on track. Interesting for me was Abdullaziz Bin Laden rode my bike last time out - he rode in BSB last year on the first 1199 with Scott Smart. He rode it FASSSTTTT as round the autodrome and came in and said the engine was MUCH better than the race bike he rode in BSB and said that they should have had that engine. My bike is standard R with carbon race bodywork. He was impressed with it. In relation to the issues raised here though, maybe this is why there are now STRONG rumours of a "special" R coming out next year..... be interested to hear if anyone else has heard this as my source is very good.
i think the problem is that thay took the possibilities of the stock engine so close to the race engines that they now ever so slowly in tis development. They will not allow the SBK pipe under warranty as they feel it will put so much stress on the engine, it will no linger be reliable. And all the sbk pipe does is increase torque between 5.5 and 8. so they're afraid of torque. Today another Base engine that was pushed (smoothened out low down and upped with Rapidbike ) blew at Zolder. Whatever you do , do not inrease the rev limit and don't even smoothen out for the power to be constant the last 1000 revs ... i'm really looking forward to the RS throttle and the specific mapping of it... I had the bike set up today by The Ohlins expert. And i'm surprised to what he did. He ligthened the front springs from 10kg to 9,75kg and lowered the oil level in the forks from 210 to 180MM.. but then at the rear he compensated the rearspring to be too light by changing from F(ixed) to P(rogressive) ... i have no clue as to why but i'll know tomorrow ! ... now this will be interesting! the bike weighed in at 183 full tank. or 175 half tank or 166 kg fluids in. We know the Pro pipes are in at Ducati so we should get them on before third week july... that's the time to get the Cams timing done and bolt on the last bits and pieces. that in combo with the throttle will, imho be the magic combination... as it allows for every 10% throttle opening to be optimized. whacking that throttle open is like opening the gates of hell and as you say very brutal on those pistons and the feuling system. SO hard to smoothen out and probably it will take this kind of setup! Also in the package might be an even lesser BC package set as combo 4 .... but we will get there...
Hi buddy , nice of you to chip in ! some ideas coming up would be a suspension upgrade ( more race oriented - so dropping the DES or making it semi/active) and also a different injection from weber marelli as next years rules will make them use the system that is on...
Kope, Interesting that your Ohlins guy did that too. My setup (which looks very similar to Steve at MR although we never separately consulted on the setup) was to drop the rear ride height a lot, soften the rear spring and put it in progressive. Made a big difference. I am also running 9.5 springs but set oil height at 210mm to stop diving at the bottom of the stroke as mine were on 160mm stock from the factory. However, just switched to Ohlins 30mm cartridge kit on my 848 track bike and they have soooooo much more support than the stock DES forks I would change mine to those in a heartbeat if I was using it on track, and I would convert the rear to a standard TTX adjusted shock, as you can remove DES and put manual adjusters in with parts available from Ohlins. Anyway on the engine, the other thing is that mine softened up a lot after about 2,500mls, it spins more freely and is dramatically better than when it was new. Clearly the fact it also drinks oil means that the pistons are not perfectly mated to the chamber/liner but the bit less friction compared to the bedding in period is noticeable. Interesting what you say about them letting go with higher torque..... Can't comment on that as can't think of why..... I can see though that these huge pistons and massive valve openings means that the natural character of this engine will be a bit harsh, and I wonder what exactly they ever could do with electronics to control that. The RSV4 engine will be like the Desmo and much easier to control with the RBW throttle electronics, likewise the IL4 engines.... The older 1098R engine clearly had longer stroke and smaller pistons with smaller valves, so the engine will have automatically had a softer character...... I also wonder what the Panigale engine would feel like with a heavier flywheel. Although it wouldn't spin up as fast, would it help add control to the rate of change of piston speed and calm the engine?
Extremely interesting read koen!!!!!!!!!!doing a brilliant job with the bike.I think iv seen that new design pipe repido are trying out,its got a extra bend in it hasn't it???hope you enjoyed your time in UK mate
if the WSBK pipe brings back the 1198R punch , it means the engine can do it. All it takes is the right pipe. but then they di gain 10/15 bhp from the same displacement. that is almost 10%. and it revs 1500revs higher. that is also a 10% increase. on massive pistons... now come on guys, this is like a huge step forward. I surely miss having ridden the 1198R to make any comparison. But Luc and Stef, my R bother in arms both have one and have tracked it very extensively. Any time we speak of that bike, they stille refer to it as THE beast.. and of a wrestling match to tame it. they refer to the Pani as civlised. I think Ducati with the Pani wanted 2 things . More top end and flickability. I think they knew that pumping more power out of the TESTA engine would make it unridable , as even more torque would come with it, making it even more of a beast. especially if they would drop another 10kgs of the bike. they did achieve it all. they got more power ( compare a base with a stock 1198 please not with an R) and lost over 12 kgs over the 1198 base. the cost : more nervous chassis and peakier engine. now they're sort of adressing both to find the right balance. And even though the Pani very much is a Ducati, it will no longer be "the shift at 7K, smoke a fag in the turns"- Ducati.. it is now "shift at 11K , throw it around and hold on as it will wiggle its head"-Ducati ... i know one thing. A buddy of mine with a base hit A group on only the third outing on the bike , knocking 2 seconds off his all time best.. to be said that was a 600 but one he rode in anger on a track that suits that bike very well... perhaps we should wonder : perhaps we were too lazy on those classic Ducs.. now it' more intense.. sometimes it sounds like it would be more duclike to get on a beemer... grunty still very smooth, very stable, very... well... i love that pani as, just as the 916 did, it lets me do things i thought i wasn't capable of..
Got back from the Ohlins Man at EMC37 ... he raised the oil level instead of lowering it but did run softer front springs ( 9,5KG instead of 10KG) he did not increase spring rate at the rear but swithced to Progressive to allow for a more souple ride while still giving more stability to the rear as the spring increase its hardness over travel. All this should result in a more stable and less itchy ride, while still holding its speed of entry and flickability.. we'll test this setup next week thursday at Zolder... can't wait ! call me crazy but i'm finding out where to find a magnesium swingarm for this one... wouldn't that be really oldschool : magnesium triples and swingarm..
ok! things are moving again as the pro pipe arrived and the last carbon bits ( radiator fairing and side panels ) got to Holland at last! e pritty intense riding schedule ahead with Zolder tomorrow and Spa the 18th... and next week is week out with the MSS touring the Mosel on the Multi.... this must be what heaven looks like grtz
Blimey you were brave ;-) But really interetsing point as the control ECU is totally buggering any chance Wilf and co have of being competitive even if they had Paul Bird tyoe funding. And now there is a really strong rider on the SsTK bike its had a win and a fourth...says it all I think
I still think much of the rider feedback issues on stability are as peeps are used to a 'normal' Ducati which is slower steering and super stable. Even when you quicken them up, they seem to still be stable as comparing to the same actions on an IL4 they are still slower steering I need to try a Panigale..
Test Day of the new setup at Zolder. and the jury is still out. I'm not sure yet whether we did improve on what was. Zolder is a very stop and go track with 3 awful chicanes that are meant for cars but def not bikes. the surfca is good but has some bumps in the fastest corners so can upset the bike. i was un der the impression that the bike was softened up a bit. Overall impression is a more nervous front end and some pumping on the rear, althoug this was more vague.... as ZOlder is a heavy on the brakes track, and that thus i'm now perhaps braking harder, it did chatter a couple of times wich was new to me.. not something i like... this said, the bike seems to be getting more powerful with every hundred miles it runs , raising its head easily in 3rd and 4th whenever full gas.. it had been since 1996 since i last rode there and it still felt as akward as then... stil squeezed out a decent 1'50''09 in under just 6 fast laps .. today was a massacre as probably 25% of bikes went down. nobody knows why as the weather was just perfect.. Brands was heavy on the ambulances, but Zolder today was even worse. There was not 1 session without incident. Looks like many left their brain at home... now waiting for the PRO pipe to go on next week and then off to spa on the 18 th.. that should get the verdict out on setup. The ecu's are going over to Rapido, to have the latest map of that pipe installed and some nitbits fixed ( error messages) . something that did cross my mind was to dump the ABS pump as it seems to interfere with the braking even when it is not on! the pressurepoint seems to be vaguer and varying.. we'll see... tomorrow we're of with the Multi to the MOSEL with my dearly beloved.. got a nice spa lined up for her... grtz Koen
So much happened when i on our trip to the Mosel. The ecus and BBS went over to Moto Rapido to be set by Steve to the SSTK settings they had when their bike won the race at Knockhill and the ride modes have been reset to 3 different throttlemappings to go with 195bhp mode . So wet is still wet but with 195bhp and supersmooth throttle. 1 to 4 dtc for slicks, 5and 6 for intermediate and 7 and 8 for rain... We'll be riding the bike for the first time like this tomorrow at SPA and i hope it brings the grunt we're looking for... from what we hear , it should make quit a difference..
