Nothing will change the fate of bike makers unless we change the way the younger generations view bikes. A few old farts complaining about green stuff killing bikes are missing the point that the death is really due to a lack of young people getting into bikes. At over 50 I am often the youngest at bike meets and if there are any in their 20s, it’s ones and twos, not the hordes it used to be. In twenty years how many bikers on here will still be riding? And things like the hate for electric bikes hardly makes it a welcoming place - how many teens have petrol bikes? Very few, how many are ragging around on electric bikes………..
With the patterns I’m sure that could be a great way if they can make metal ones…modern tech now with laser cutters etc could mean, with the right software etc you could make individual pieces as cheaply as big runs per unit . a real small business success
3d metal printing has been a thing for about 20 years now. They can do aluminium, stainless even titanium. Doesn't give the same strength yet as forged or machined and it's still more expensive than traditional manufacturing.
...and someone's got to create a perfect 3D-model for the part first which has got to be buildable on the machine! I get the distinct impression that Joe Public thinks that '3D-printed' parts are magically created from fairy dust! Apologies for the rant - I've been at the cutting edge of additively-manufactured metal parts for over a decade... A selection of metals available: 316 & other Stainless steels, Maraging steel, Inconel 625 & 718, Monel, a few Aluminium alloys but mainly AlSi10MG, Copper & Copper alloys, Titanium 64 and the list is growing. All take machines that cost about £1M each, need specialised facilities and are are very slow to produce and yes, don't have the grain structure of forgings but all could be made as blanks for forging. Good for very-low volume parts for aerospace & motorsport tho' but at a very high price that goes some way to balance the cost of tooling, etc for 'conventional' parts... Oh, and most current machines have around 250x250mm bed for parts up to 300mm tall. /end_rant
Still, thinking a few years ahead. If someone reproduces a rare and expensive part, let's say a gearbox casing for a Ferrari 250, and someone else on the other side of the world wants one, all they need is the machine and the file. You also don't machine away 90 odd percent of the raw material like you often do in traditional machining.
Agree, yes. However a part like that would originally be a casting, where there is very little material removed. Metal AM is basically mimicking cast parts (often with some advantages, especially no mould tooling).
Forgive my ignorance, doesn’t billet command more than cast in parts costs? I’m using limited bike parts buying as a gauge her, as soon as it says ‘billet’ on the box it’s twice as expensive
Depends on how many pieces you cast. The patterns and mold are very expensive. Cast 20000+ pieces and the prices are low. Cast 10 pieces and prices are astronomical. Billet machining has a very high material cost but may be more economical for smaller numbers. There are also a number of materials or compositions that you simply can't cast. Back to the topic. I hazard a guess that no manufacturer has kept all the cast, press, forge or other tools for models they haven't produced for more than 10 years.
To be honest, there is no money in keeping huge amounts of stock that you might sell but no guarantee. Stock is money sitting on the shelf.
Have quite a few friends with Austin 7s. You can still get a healthy number of parts off the shelf for those. It does take a dedicated number of enthusiastic owners to organise and they are pretty basic vehicles.
Same as when I built my 1975 custom Triumph Bonneville. There are at least half a dozen UK places to get almost all parts (other than major castings) for most major British makes, with parts for some going back to the 30s. American parts market is strong for Triumph (& possibly others) too, as the twins were so popular there in 60s/70s. However, I doubt anyone under 50 is buying parts...
'Billet' only means that it's machined from a lump of metal which is not a casting. It doesn't mean anything about quality, material or machining. However, there's usually a lot of material machined away to produce the part so the source material cost is high (especially if it's high-spec material). Machining set-up, machining time, material finishing and so on are high, especially for a small number of parts. Hence the 'billet' price tag...
It's model life +10 Years of support - so that's spares package but also software updates and things like satnav maps in the case of the DVD / SD card et al based systems pre carplay. So Bradders, people get all starry eyed about that term. All billet really means is a block of metal. CNC machined and billet has become as ubiquitous bedfellows as calling a vacuum cleaner a hoover. A casting or a forging still needs to be machined, especially for precise stuff which have to have bearing seats and controlled faces, but the difference is that in the time the CNC can mill out one part, the forge press or stamping machine can bang out a hundred and simultaneously send it to the next line machine to automate the drilling of holes and flatting of faces. machined is always better than forged which is always better than cast, but there's cost and most important time and volume considerations. Lets take something like a yoke, say a 999 top yoke. You'd be fooled into thinking it's machined at first glance but its a forged item that's finished off, and I bet that you see several dozen completed vs putting a slug of metal into a 4 axis mill and milling one out. So then you get onto economies of scale, and that stamping is 10 euro for 1000 units vs 100 euro for a machined part. Once upon a time we had a bracket in the transmission tunnel of one of the cars we were working on. It was a cast item coming in a 20 euro's a pop. After a bit of testing it was costed down to a 2 euro bracket of folded tin. As @Petsmith and @Keith_P have said, it's not about inventory, it's about where do you put it first and foremost. Some aerospace suppliers for non structural elements like non critical fittings and fastenings 3d print to order, you've saved acres of warehouse and storage costs. Yes you can and they do print conrods, but its not a case of print and fit, the rod still needs to go through a forging process to give it a grain structure, otherwise it's just sintered metal dust. Would it surprise you to learn that they grow turbine blades from crystal structures? - loads of clever stuff designed to eliminate a warehouse full of parts and initial capital investment in inventory, but nothing that comes off a 3d printer at that level is a ready to fit solution, and so not right for high volume production. Also, what you'll find is that as is often the case, some manufacturers suddenly do a stock check one day in some out of the way warehouse they'd forgotten about and discover a treasure trove of old classic parts - that's what happened with Suzuki and Honda. That old classic parts line is true up to a point, but truth is, if they don't have it, they're not making it. I've had to source a nearly new SRAD fairing because I couldn't get the decals anymore for the '96 press launch colours bike I'm restoring. However, that's all a moot point. It's easy to talk about the cost of a bike being ludicrous now. It's easy to say make more spares for older stuff. Truth is, nobody's buying bikes. Costs were always up there. When I bought my SRAD in 96 it was 9 grand, jut over. An Urban Tiger blade was around the same and a 916 was 12,500 if you wanted one of the tarty ones or a 748sp. A renault magane or other small family hatch was between 7-10, so leaving out the numbers themselves the delta has never really changed. We have a test system that's a pain in the arse and has more hoops than a circus to jump through. We have an entire generation that has no interest in motorbikes. We as motorcyclists have no visibility whatsoever. It's interesting that a recent survey done amongst today's society and the yoof found that the perception of motorcyclists is dangerous , risky and also has got it's edgy dangerous image back. Very general but what that says is that people would rather have a car, and be warm and dry and take their mates out. What would I do? Easier said than done. I'd love to see the driving test overhauled first and foremost, rearrange the order of things; I'd have it so that the theory test was done before you even got your provisional - it would filter out and dissuade so many from the outset. Then I'd have a compulsory CBT certificate, so both car and bike have a certificate of competence for a basic level machine control before they get out on the road. Then you have your test. It would free up test centre back logs by controlling the traffic flow. DVSA/LA are very good at moaning that they set aside testing slots for 2 wheels in winter and they sit unused - no shit! I did my test in december and I froze my little balls off. Give them to 4 wheels to speed through the back log and put more slots in the BST months. And recruitment and visibility... I'm not seeing any motorbike manufacturer paying for ads on TV or media- suzuki did some brilliant ones in the USA. I'm not seeing any mention of even the results of an event in the sports highlights of the news, yet other than ball sports, you get to hear about other sports if even a passing mention. A good guy on a bike in a tv programme wouldn't hurt. As I say, we don't exist anymore, we're a niche fringe activity that isn't recruiting new blood from any demographic other than gig economy fast food kamikaze riders. Short of seeing a bike and thinking wow that's cool, there's nothing to engage or recruit new blood at any level, nor to promote the other aspects of motorcycling past parody or cliche. The "people can come to us" attitude has to change and motorcycling has to get up off it's arse and get itself seen and heard if it wants to survive. I mean, let's face it, the car world is a sea of boring SUV's. and we've got a sea of boring SUV bikes ... potato potarto, difference is that everyone knows boring 4 wheeled SUV's exist. Sorry for the long post.
And remained unchanged for many years but still have challenges such as the phosphor bronze bearings which few have the skills to do well these days. Look at the engine compatibility of something like a 350cc AJS engine, where parts can be swapped over nearly twenty years, to Jap stuff in the 80s where parts were often changed year on year on year and the enormity of keeping more modern bikes in the road becomes apparent. Thankfully there are enthusiasts who work wonders but I think survival rates from post 90s bikes will be a fraction of that for pre 80s stuff.
Totally agree. It’s a phase shift in thinking as well. We went from a society that wanted to make something right first time and a sign of quality was its ability to endure and be repaired, maintained and kept alive. Now I everything is disposable and the buying public aren’t groomed into taking pride in ownership, merely pay ide in ownership right now it’s the aspiration of upgrading in a couple three years. look at furniture, designed around an ideal that you’ll be aspirational, wealthy and making your house over a very half to a decade, so why would you want something that endures past its warranty period. I mean think back to the skills needed for those bearings and the precision. At brooklands college there was a hall full of mills and lathes with retired aerospace guys doing the teaching. Then aerospace stopped pumping them out and there was nobody with real world experience teaching anymore, and so you just have a young career teacher picking up the course notes and working his way through.
We can say many things about Henry Cole, bless him, but he is at least a nice guy on a motorcycle who is giving motorcycling decent exposure. Exposure that is different from the tired old tropes of gangs & grease & speed & racing. He also has articles on his show that help to promote the mental health aspects and inclusivity of the motorcycling fraternity and motorcycling as a life interest. I recall a couple about female rider groups and how they have helped women with their self confidence. I don't have much proof but I think many (most?) new riders aren't the scally 18 year olds of our youth but older, mid twenties say, people who are seeing the excitement, family & 'life style' of motorcycling as an attraction (from boring SUVs). And I think manufacturers are aware of this, type in triumph into google and it completes it with 'Triumph Speed 400'. Go to it's wed site and they'll be picture of both (young) men & women riding the bike. Do the same with Royal Enfield and their HNTR 350 - see their web site promo pic below. All manufacturers have similar 'safe' A2 models that introduce newcomers to motorcycling and also to their own marque with a range that allows them to upgrade for years to come. Perhaps we only see guys of our own age because it's only guys of our own age that go to the same places we do.
I If this is the case then it’s very optimistic. I’d just love to see two wheel on mainstream tv and advertising. I always remember Carl fogarty getting pissed off when he got stopped by a copper and the guy say who do you think you are?, Barry Sheen? but at the time although bike sport was in its golden era, nobody was a household name anymore unlike Sheen- god bless World of sport!
You have to hunt on a BBC NI page for any info on motorcycle racing, so it certainly ain’t mainstream. (unless you go to specialist sites). Can’t recall a bike ad on TV ever? Saying bout younguns going to places where us old farts don’t or vice versa, that doesn’t correlate with the low numbers at bike shows from my own experience - at 53 last time I went to one (a year ago) I was one of the younger ones!
