whats pisses me off is that the EU paid for that road and gave it as a gift to the algarve (well that was how it was trumpeted at the time) fwiw, they dont chase foreign plates in my experience
Are you mad????? I'm using it as an example to,to show that in the real world the EU can't even agree to organise a piss-up in a brewery,so whats the bloody point? We all use the roads,some of us throughout Europe.It would be a simple thing to agree a set amount per km travelled for each class of vehicle,and charge accordingly. I'm sure you're aware that while I,as a British Haulier,have to contribute to every other countries road fund coffers,all those Foreign trucks that you see over here pay the UK exactly.....fookall!Nothing!Sweet bugger all! Factor in that they can buy diesel for 89p a litre in Lux,(and an awful lot are toting 1600 litre tanks),then Johnny Foreigner can fill his tanks to the brim in Luxembourg,run around the UK all week burning said diesel for which the UK sees not a tanner in tax,pay fookall for the roads over here,and,(to rub salt into the wounds),in a lot of Europe theres a lorry ban Saturday 22.00 to Sunday 22.00,so guess who likes to get here at 21.00hrs on a Saturday so he can run all the weekend?
So how about a mandatory tax on foreign lorries? I'm all in favour. Seems absurd that UK lorries contribute to EU economies, but the reverse doesn't apply. I can't see the political downside here, although you can bet that the CBI or someone would bleat that it will increase the cost of imported goods for households, or damage UK exports. Humbug!
The cantons (like English counties) are autonomous, more like the States - i.e., they have their own governments, budgets, police etc. Switzerland is in fact the Swiss Federation of these cantons. The cantons look after their own roads, so you'd be unlikely to get company building a transcantonal road - someone wouldn't like it and it wouldn't happen.
Well here's the thing: EU law says that you can't have a tax if it gives the domestic Haulier an advantage,so the idiots in our Government,(of all hues),looked into it with a view to abolishing rhe RFL and introducing a Vignette.We'd pay the same as we do now,but our Foreign friends would have to buy the vignette. They decided it would be too difficult to collect....so theres Germany,(with all those land border crossing entry points that are completely unpoliced),making a total success of it. And then theres the UK. An island nation with only something like 20 entry points,either by sea or a Tunnel,with a full-time HM Customs presence at every point,and we won't even try. Go to Swiss, it's so simple it makes you weep.Go to Customs office,stick your fuel card into a machine,put your entry/exit mileage into it,and get a receipt for what you've paid.When you drive out Mr Customs gatekeeper checks your ticket/sometime your tachograph and sends you on your way,but woe betide you if you've fibbed about either your weight/vehicle details/or the mileage in you travelled while in Swiss. So instead of all those Hi-Viz jacket wearers trying to nick you for bringing in an extra packet of fags,at least one of them would be doing something useful.... It makes my blood boil,the "can't do",attitude in this country....grrrrr.....
Well explained, while we are at it we could tax the touring motorists as well as the hauliers......they don't like it up them you know!
All the countries of Europe freely recognise one another's driving licences, vehicle registrations, vehicle annual taxes, insurance cover, MOT or equivalent, and (more or less) construction and use regulations. So far so good, although it took many years and a lot of harmonising work to get to this point. There are just two snags. First, some countries (France, Spain, Italy) have toll motorways while in others (UK, Germany, Netherlands) motorways are free at point of use. So a (say) German driver in Italy pays for the roads in tolls, while an Italian driver in Germany gets a free ride at German taxpayers' expense. Second point, in Alpine countries like Austria and Switzerland roads are very expensive to build; but drivers from neighbouring countries get to use the Alpine crossing roads a lot more than Alpine drivers get to use the neighbouring countries' roads. This lack of equivalence is felt to be unfair by taxpayers/voters, and hence governments, in several countries. They have struggled to find ways of establishing mutuality and fairness, without introducing tolls everywhere which would also be unpopular with voters. The Swiss solution, abolishing tolls even on major tunnels but introducing a vignette everyone must pay equally, whether Swiss or not, has been gradually spreading to other countries. I suspect it will eventually become universal in countries which do not have tolls. If a vignette was introduced in the UK, we would all have to pay it whether British or visitors from other states, and the tolls on the M6 Toll and the Dartford/Severn/Mersey/Humber etc crossings would have to be correspondingly abolished. I have never heard that there is any political support for such a vignette proposal in the UK yet, from any quarter, so I expect it will take several years before we get there.
We all already pay for a tax disc in exactly the same way that a Swiss will buy an annual Vignette,so your point is? And why abolish bridge crossings?Plenty of countries have tolled bridges/tunnels AND a Vignette/RFL....(apart from Dartford,which the last Government blatantly ripped us all off by refusing to abolish the toll,after the taxpayer funded the thing on the promise that it would one day be free) I'll press the point for HGV's: it would be easier for this country than any other in Europe to toll HGV's and coaches,but for some reason the UK government is reluctant to do anything,even though it has helped decimate the British haulage industry. Count the number of Foreign registered trucks on UK motorways,and compare the number with UK reg.HGVs...
Not so. We have to pay for the plates every year (essentially the road tax) and then, if you want to use the motorways, you have to come up with extra for the vignette. What is unfair about the vignette - in my view - is that I have to buy one for the bike and the car. I can't use both at once, so I am effectively paying double. Obviously. all the miles I do on the motorway with the bike are miles I am not doing with the car. I think the vignette should be per person - on payment, you should get as many as you require for your vehicles. An interesting point is that Swiss insurance is for the vehicle. Anyone is allowed to drive my car or ride my bike if they have a valid licence. It makes life simple.
As you very well know, a tax disc is nothing like a vignette. Every country has a tax disc or equivalent, and it is simply a mechanism for taxing the motor vehicles of residents. There is not the slightest prospect that any country will ever abolish this source of revenue. Nor can it possibly be extended to non-residents. A vignette is like buying a railway season ticket , or a London congestion charge - it is not compulsory to buy a vignette, but if you don't buy one you will not be allowed to use a defined list of specific roads. And if you plan to use those specific roads, you have to pay the charge for a vignette regardless whether you are a native of that country or a foreigner. As for abolishing tolls for bridges and tunnels, this is a matter of practical politics. Any government proposing to introduce vignettes, which most people would anticipate having to pay for, would have to secure the acquiescence of most voters which would be very difficult. It would be absolutely essential to abolish bridge & tunnel tolls as a quid pro quo, or else the vignette would be politically impossible to bring in. If you want to argue, or campaign, for the introduction of a vignette system in the UK, go right ahead. Good luck with that.
A vignette allowing you to use certain roads doesn't apply in the case of HGV's: it's compulsory to buy a Eurovignette if you wish to travel on any road in Benelux,Denmark,and Sweden,(can't remember if there are any others).Essentially a piece of paper to stick in your windscreen that says you've contributed to the economies of those countries.Be pedantic if you like,but paying a sum of money to use the road network for a period of time is exactly what you do over here. There are differences in charges for motorway use in different countries,such as Germany.But these are calculated over distance,and they are tolls,not Vignettes. And these charges are being extended to most non-motorway routes in Germany,in the same way that the French are introducing an EcoTaxe for every vehicle over the size of a big Sprinter van,for using the non-peage roads. If the cost of the annual vignette for a bike/car was exactly the same as the current RFL,I doubt anyone would notice the difference. Anyway,my original contribution regarding this was to point out how your cherished EU couldn't agree on something as simple as road pricing for trucks,(which every country charges except the UK),and how it disadvantages both the UK haulier and the UK taxpayer. Over here,we pay,they don't. Over there,we pay,they pay.
My posts related only to the regime for ordinary vehicles, cars bikes & vans. I have said nothing at all about HGVs or PSVs. Lightning's comments seem to be mixed together, with some about ordinary vehicles and some about HGVs, although it is hard to tell. If I understand it correctly (and I'm not sure I do), Lightning seems to be saying that certain aspects of HGV regulation have not been harmonised across the whole EU, that the UK's resistance to harmonisation is damaging to the UK transport industry, and that further harmonisation should be UK government policy. He may well be right in this, but a more structured argument would help. He then goes on, bizarrely, to say that the UK's resistance to such harmonisation is the fault of the EU. It is not easy to imagine what justification there could possibly be for that argument, but if there is any I would like to read it.
Good on ya,Pete,....I love the way you like to muddle any discussion involving the EU,but it's becoming soooo predictable mate.Try to read things as they are written,(and without your natural bias:wink,and it'll all become clear...
So it seems you are unable or unwilling to clarify any of the rather muddled posts you have previously made on this topic, even when asked politely. OK, that's up to you - but rather a pity, if I may say so.
Aww,c'mon mate,I think I've made my various points quite clearly,and I didn't want to bore anyone else by repeating them. But just for you: If we want to travel on the public,(taxpayer funded) roads in/on any form of motor vehicle,we have to pay. This payment may be to travel on all ,or just some,types of taxpayer funded road. Whichever name you give it,RFL/Road tax/Vignette/Toll/whatever,it's a cost to you.Just like a tax...only Politicians and rule makers can't bring themselves to describe it so simply. Harmonising the cost of using publicly funded roads throughout the EU would be a very easy thing to do,but as usual,the political Ego-Trippers all have different favourite methods of fleecing the taxpayer,so we end up with the usual dogs breakfast. As an awful lot of cars and motorcycles never leave their own countries,you could say that for the Owners of these vehicles it won't make a blind bit of difference,and so why bother with harmonisation.Fair enough,a lot of the motorways throughout Europe are tax-free for visitors with cars/bikes etc anyway. But as someone who runs a business whose vehicles travel throughout Europe very frequently,I take a very keen interest in any costs which disadvantage my business against similar businesses in other member States of the EU,(formerly called the Common Market,and supposed to be an Economic Union,which it patently is not) As I described in an earlier post,various forms and amounts of tax are charged for trucks to travel ,(on taxpayer funded roads),in different countries of the EU. When my vehicles travel in these Countries.I have to pay these charges.I don't bitch about this:if you use the roads,you have to help pay for the upkeep. In addition to this,I also pay the RFL in this country.I don't bitch about this:if you use the roads,you have to help pay for the upkeep. (In addition to this,I also pay some of the highest fuel prices in the EU) So I do bitch about Foreign trucks entering the UK,wearing out "our",road network,for free. (And by bringing in fuel bought more cheaply in other countries,they also avoid any UK fuel duty as well) The EU,(of which the UK is a member,),could quite easily introduce a harmonised tax for all these vehicles in their various different classes,but they don't.So it's a complicated mess of different windscreen transponders,stick-on discs,daily or per-km charges...a bloody nightmare for small companies like mine. And so,in my opinion,and the opinion of the the majority of UK hauliers: (1) The UK Government should be charging Foreign HGV's to use our road network.Easily done,either by distance,(like the German Toll-Collect),or by the time period,(like the Euro-Vignette).They don't do either,so the UK taxpayer picks up the tab for helping an awful lot of our Continental cousins undercut UK hauliers.The UK Government is made up of idiots. (2) All this could be avoided by the EU harmonising tax rates for HGV's.No Vignette/no Maut/no Toll-Collect/whatever you like to call it required,Europe-wide,everyone pays the same. One transponder on the windscreen/one gantry at every truck entry border crossing pings you in-an-out,and that country gets paid it's fair share.But they don't,far better for them rule their own than do good for International business.More bloody idiots. Hope this has clarified things for you,Pete. And just a small point.What you describe as "asking politely",doesn't actually read that way.It actually comes across as someone talking to someone, about someone else,even though the someone being talked about can hear you. We don't do that in Bedfordshire. Asking politely usually involves an actual request down here.
Surely that depends on which part of Bedfordshire you live in? In North Beds we ask nicely but in Luton they usually put a knife to your neck when they want something :wink:
