If only. The Remembrance Day event at the Cenotaph in Whitehall is exclusively religious. Representatives of various religious bodies are invited, but representatives of humanist and secularist bodies are specifically excluded. The event does not pay respect to the dead 'regardless of colour, creed, or religious allegiance' - those war dead holding no religious belief (of whom there are many) are deliberately denied respect.
So canvas to change it, you of all people know what it takes to do that. And it does t start with ridiculing the views and beliefs of those with religion, which alas is often the starting point
Exactly my point. The fact that they are free to do what you describe is the tribute. I would not expect students of that age to be any different. It is a shame that the members of our armed forces of the same age don't get a similar opportunity to learn from intemperate things without risking their lives for the rest of us. Also, for the avoidance of doubt, I did many half baked things at that age, and quite a few in more recent times, but I have never risked my life to defend anyone or anything, so my utmost respect goes to those who do just that.
There has been a long campaign about this, which is ongoing. It may take a few more years to get there. Personally I am campaigning about a different set of issues - I'll post about it next week.
After living abroard now for a few years, in germany, i must admit i find the UK a bit obsessed with the whole 'respect' issue etc. my own personal thoughts after serving myself for nearly 23 Years and also spending time in Iraq, Bosnia, NI etc is that most of the guys i know, dont really want any ' recognition' as they feel very uncomfortable with it. i had a chat with an American a few years ago on a flight to the Uk from europe, and as we all stood up to leave the plane he started to thank me on behalf off... etc etc.. i just wished that the floor would have opend up under me.. i think the media have got their hands on this, and as an outsider now, it seems that it is often used as an 'us Vs them' tool in the papers etc. but i might be wrong just my 2p worth..
Its a good point. Respect in this context, imho, is more about quiet reflection than shaking everyone who ever put a uniform on by the hand
Absolutely right - Respect in the traditional sense of the word, not the "rispek, innit" of youth culture. Showing respect to the armed forces should not necessarily mean open, public shows of artificial affection - the whole marching band, clapping and cheering thing - leave that to the Americans. It should mean looking after the people who have been injured - physically and mentally - whilst serving; it should mean paying a combat soldier more than a traffic warden; it should mean taking care of service veterans of all ages. The biggest percentage of homeless people, living rough in the UK are ex-servicemen and that, in itself, is a clear indication of how little respect they actually get...
Stu - my apologies if you consider any of what I have said to be "banter" - it is in no way intended to be. It is, however, a comment on how I see the situation based on three decades of service...
Sorry Stu, but my thread was also not written as 'banter' and I hope that it wasn't taken as such. In the final few years of my service, I ( and many around me) hated the fact that we, the service person, had become a tool for politicians and those with an axe to grind, by marching us out on public displays. There is a great shot of the Pm at the time (2008) with a Crowd of straight faced forces personnel around him and even a few looking in different directions. I think it had to do with the fact we were getting attacked by rockets everyday, and some forces policy on expenses etc had just been released. A sceptic night think that an upturn in the image of a service person and the timely renewal of almost all of the Mod defence equipment ( that was previously only fit for defence against the iron curtain) might have something in common.. My last point would be that I remember the friends and comrades I lost almost every day, those suffering the after effects of service I.e. Injury, loss or PTSD for example are reminded every minute. We don't need a special day for it.
Well I think the little jumped up students need to learn some respect! Ok freedom of speech maybe BUT where do they think they got it? This is not about modern day standards it's about remembering those who lost there lives and have payed the ultimate price for the life we live today! You can make what you want of the politics, religion, etc but the simple fact of the whole thing is respect for those who died. For me it's that simple, I shall pay my respect to those who have given all for my freedom etc etc.
You can't have "freedom of speech BUT". Either you believe in the principle of freedom of speech or you don't, it's not a conditional right to freedom of speech as long as it's on a list of accepted subjects it is the right to say things you and I may fundamentally disagree with. "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it"
Respect and remembrance can be mutually exclusive. As long as those students are made to understand why they are allowed to freely form opinions there shouldn't be any issue. I am an atheist, and I can see why it would be important to some to remember the dead without any caveats towards religion. But I can't see that forcing the issue over religion would help in any way. A religious event Remembrance day may be, but I've never seen it as such, and I suspect I'm the same as many other people. The event is heavily televised, and that's how a lot of younger people learn about Remembrance Day. Take away the religious aspect, and the event loses it's status, and therefore screenability. The event is a reminder for all to remember the dead. Without that reminder it could all too easily be forgotten.
The format for the remembrance day service in Whitehall at the Cenotaph was set nearly a hundred years ago and there is no need to change it. We must never demean the memory of our Glorious dead.
I disagree totally. An event of great dignity and solemnity can always be ruined by interposing unwanted religious hocus-pocus, and usually is.
The format has changed a good deal over the years since 1919, mainly for the better, but still needs to change a little more. We ought to cease demeaning the memory of our Glorious dead by associating it with religious beliefs - which many of those dead did not share.
It is probably true to say that the majority of our War dead did have religious beliefs. I believe that remembrance is about them and not about us. The style of the country's remembrance should not be changed to conform to the wishes of Guardian newspaper readers.
