I believe that Sharia courts are being used to adjudicate disputes when both parties voluntarily agree. To what extent there is coercion within Muslim communities to go to Sharia I don't know, nor what penalties are allowed. Whilst I am very uncomfortable with this is it any different from any form of arbitration or is it the thin end of the wedge ?
What we have failed to recognise is that whilst M&S do have a policy whereby religious beliefs are catered for this person was assigned to the checkout either in error or changed their mind once they got there.
Under the Arbitration Act 1996, the parties to some kinds of civil disputes can agree to refer the matter to an arbitrator. An arbitrator is a sort of private judge, who can save the disputants some time and money. Sometimes muslims choose to refer their disputes to a muslim arbitrator. So far so good. There can be problems. Arbitrators who claim to be "courts", which they are not. Arbitrators who apply principles which are contrary to the laws of England & Wales. Arbitrators who deal with cases where one party has been forced to submit to the process unwillingly. Arbitrators who purport to deal not only with civil disputes but with family cases and even criminal cases. Arbitrators who act in a manner contrary to the rules of natural justice. When the Daily Mail froths about 'Sharia Courts taking over', what they are really referring to is arbitrators who have (allegedly) acted wrongly or incompetently or in excess of their powers. These problems do exist, but sadly they are not exclusive to muslims.
It's the thin end of the wedge. Relativism at its worst. An admittance that some dusty old pre-mediaval work should be used as a basis for deciding anything in a country with far nobler traditions and a fully operational justice system. Hey, why not courts decided by Scientologists - they have religious status? Or the Moonies perhaps, or Mormon tribunals? No, this implies that the Muslim way of doing things is equally valid to anything the UK has evolved. There is much to dislike in Islam (the weird clothes and the insufferable segregation of the sexes). Is this not just appeasement? (And we know what Churchill thought about that.) Naturally, in Muslim countries they should do what they want. They are, after all, their countries, their culture.
Its quote somple. Interview goes like...'we are a retailer, do you want to work here and all it entail, here are your shifts and your duties' 'oh I don't eat pork or drink' 'ok go work in clarkes' Simple. If you cant do the job, fuck off and get one you can. I cant understand Chinese, so I wont be working in a Chinese restaurant where its very infrequently visited by English speakers. I do t agree with how animals are murdered for Halal so guess what, i wont work in a halal butchers. Is it that difficult?!
I suspect we are all a bit "tired". Bradders, the manner in which you have made your point is not particularly eloquent, but to the extent that I think I understand it, I agree with the main thrust of your post.
I don't believe the objections to handling booze is even understood by the people doing it. Their religion does not allow the consumption of it but would be perfectly happy for it to be used for cleaning. Therefore their objection is invalid on religious grounds. If they do not have enough respect for their teachings to learn them why should anyone else pander to them.
It would be helpful if a Muslim forum member could explain whether the Koran can be interpreted as forbidding involvement in the supply of alcohol - after all, it can be regarded as provision of an addictive and dangerous drug; pork is a differet matter, being to do with dietary safety I imagine (possibly even based on same rulings in Leviticus - again, it would be interesting to know). I have also heard of a case involving a minicab driver refusing to transport passengers from an airport with their duty-free in the boot! It must be something to do with "assisting in the supply and consumption", because clearly the "physical contact" argument has no merit because all of the products (pork or drink) are in sealed containers. Anyway, it does now seem that M&S have simply mismanaged the situation and that compared to some employers they have strayed too far in the employee's favour (reassigning to other duties being the pragmatic approach), to the disadvantage of the customer. The law it seems would allow stricter action by the employer against the employee, at least in the case of other religious beliefs: BBC News - Christian discrimination claims heard by Europe court
These things are just a way to create self importance and make small insignificant people feel like they have power
The Quran apparently says that people should always be in control of their actions, therefore anything (like alcohol) that makes you lose control is forbidden. The pork and shellfish issue is not based on any thing spiritual but rather based on when they (Jews, Muslims, whoever) were wandering through the desert centuries ago, and decided to cook a pig and/or shellfish on their travels. And given that they didnt have very good food hygiene standards, they did not cook their food well enough and fell ill when they ate it. Their interpretation of this was that God/Allah/Jehova deemed that they should not eat such food. Standards have moved on and as we know eating pork and shellfish is completely safe if cooked properly. Unfortunately medieval religions such as Islam has not moved on.
I heard an interesting interview on Radio 5 yesterday. The speaker was a Muslim legal adviser and her advice was that it was nonsensical as the person at checkout was doing her job, not actively promoting the sale of alcohol or pork and not coming into contact with it. She also advised fellow Muslims to go to Christmas/Office parties where alcohol was being consumed and not exclude themselves from work colleagues and society. A shame she wasn't on the TV news. The media will latch on to anything they can as it hits a nerve with the British public. If only more Muslim leaders with common sense would be seen, heard, and quoted, this whole nonsense brought about by ignorance and misinformation would be shown up for what it really is.
Agree and as i have said, some of that ignorance and misinformation comes from the offended parties themselves.
There was a very similar discussion with a Muslim lady on BBC Radio 4 yesterday. 2 of my Muslim friends each own Asian food (curry house) restaurants. One serves alcohol & all of his staff (also Muslim) participate in doing so. The other friend does not sell alcohol in his restaurant, out of respect for his father's strong religious beliefs. He encourages customers to bring their own drinks & even provides refrigerators behind the 'bar' to keep beer etc cool. He & his staff will happily bring alcoholic drinks to customers' tables & will open bottles for them. There are no issues & the system works for everyone. How many Asian restaurants serve alcohol? M&S staff playing games? More media 'froth' or just a 'slow news' day? Hope everyone has a great Christmas
No the world has not gone mad - to go mad it would have had to be sane in the first place. Waking up to the fact that it's all a bit stupid means you must have approached middle age and have the time to actually stop and look around at it. I would suggest that as life is so short - typically 1 month for every cc of your average Ducati - best focus on making the most of what time is left . If your down to classic single cc remaining like me none of these "news" stories deserve and scrutiny.
I've just seen the news about Muslim staff in M&S refusing to sell alcohol. Whatever next? Christian staff in B&Q refusing to sell nails and wood?
'oh I don't eat pork or drink' 'ok go work in clarkes' ....................... Said Muslim did go to Clarkes looking for a position but on realising some of the 'leather uppers' were made from boar hide ( relative of porky pig ) this presented a whole new problem . The interviewer just gave up by this time just muttering " people just dont put their heart and sole into a job anymore" ................
