Exactly. So we have now lost the right to legitimately own property ? It can join the list of lost the right to social congregation on the streets and photograph / video public places.
Because you wouldn't be allowed to climb over the metal railings that stop you entering the street. Whatever you do, don't try bicycling through them when they are open.
I have to disagree with you. Some twenty years or so ago a friend of mine's father was listed by MI5 as a subversive. All he had ever done was to write to newspapers expressing his views, in many instances critical of the current government. This was a man who was blinded and lost a leg in the 2nd world war. His subversive file came to light when he was put forward for an OBE or similar honour for his work for the blind over many years. And this was in the days before electronic surveilance.
The irony of all this of course is that the terrorists have won. A few extremist bearded deluded fools have managed to make flying a complete pain in the arse, illegal to take photographs and videos of what you want, or find anywhere in a station to throw your litter. They are just succeeding in poisoning little aspects of everyday life. Sadly extra aspects are continually being added to the list.
Bradders, It seems really obvious to me that they had a perfectly good reason to take his laptop? Imagine I had robbed a bank and gave the money to a friend. My friend's partner goes on a trip and has a bag to carry through customs, would you find it outrageous that they wanted to look in her bag to see if the money was in there?
Let's see now: open forum talking about the NSA. That'll be looked through by the NSA search engine spiders, bound to be. Then why not gather a bit of data on all the people posting, particularly those who are not too keen on the NSA? Why? Because you never know when it could come in handy. Have you noticed that when you Google something, it comes up with millions of pages in a fraction of a second? That is the power of computing and the net. What makes you think that the NSA, CIA et al can't do the same? Having a file on someone is no longer some piece of cardboard in a vault, it's taking up not much room on a server underground in Nevada or somewhere. So if you are happy with foreign spy agencies knowing all about you, good luck with that! You might also be happy with the Chinese or Russians knowing all about you, after all the backdoor hardware holes in all computers and mobile devices don't have "NSA reserved" written on them.
Tom, The point is they can take what they like without any reason whatsoever, the example in practice was this one, but its a principle. Same as collecting everyones data, emails, texts, phone calls, location data. Either you are so indoctrinated in the service life of following orders and trusting your 'betters' or you have your eyes and ears closed if you cant see danger for us all in the future of opening another pandoras box that is covert surveillance on all be assured, this isnt to stop terrorism, its to control us
Bradders, I respectfully disagree completely. But at least we are free to air our different opinions. If you want to see control, look at China where this thread would probably get a lot of us locked up for a while.
I suspect also that the government are more than happy to have an excuse to extend their power, influence and control.
China is less controlled than the UK and US in many ways. And I'm expecting a knock on the door any time :wink:
But Tom, that is precisely what we are arguing about. We don't think that the spy agencies should be reading what we say, deciding if they like it or not, and reacting accordingly. Innocent people (no doubt not uniquely innocent people) were rendered to oppressive countries for torture, in the name of the War On Terror. Other innocent people (again, not uniquely innocent people) are still rotting in Guantanamo without trial in the name of the War On Terror. People in the wrong place at the wrong time, and none of them treated according to the laws of the land. You now want sweeping powers extended to the spy services for indescriminate snooping of innocent people, on the basis of the idea that that way, you'd be able to catch the malintentioned. We are saying that that is a step too far. I assume that your faith in the benign nature of the authorities means that if some innocent people get tortured in Libya with the connivance of the British govt, or some innocent people are jailed indefinitely in Guantanamo, your view is, "meh, shit happens. Collateral damage". But some of us don't feel that way.
I guess the concept of losing my own liberty so that you may have yours is something I have been comfortable with for a long time. But that goes with service. If I didn't feel the way that I do, that self-sacrifice and selflessness are good virtues to have then I would not have been able to take the risks that I have taken or go to the places I have been. I don't think it's a bad thing, equally I don't think your view point is bad either. Just different to mine. This concept, of something bad happening to someone else so that it doesn't happen to you, works both ways. I will die so he doesn't have to. He will die so that I don't have to.
When I used to travel to China on business (2005-2008), you had to have encryption removed from your laptop to be able to take it into the country. I wonder what happened when it was plugged into the hotel internet?
See this is where I don't understand you Glid , why do you come on here, do you have facebook , twitter , bank online , why if you are so afraid of spyware would you dream of being an online fanatic , do you pay for anything online do you use a credit/debit card , mobile phone . Well the answer is of course yes you do , so are you really that concerned or is this just another topic to get your teeth into. Would you not be better spending your time , lobbying , sending out leaflets demanding non surveillance on all e media . I have no problems with your or anyone elses opinions on surveillance , I don't care what is found out about me as to be honest I have never done anything remotely anti establishment , . If ever I get arrested by mistake i'll hope the geeks find out how innocent I am , if they shoot me I guess I'd never know anyway.
What i find interesting is that seemingly everyone views the subject in black and white, you are either ok with it or against it. I believe our security services do a fantastic job in keeping us safe, and that they have and do protect us from threats that we will never hear about. It is intelegence gathering that allows them to do this. Am i happy to have them read my emails? No not really, theres nothing dodgy there but still its personal and i have a right to privacy. The problem is the 7/7 bombers also had a right to privacy and if something could have been done to stop them it should have been done, so my question is when is it acceptable to collect information on someone? And who should make the decision?
Are you happy being a serf or would you rather be a free man ? Even if you don't wish to exercise those freedoms surely it is principle that matters ?
With just cause the police and other agencies can go to a judge and ask for a warrant. Otherwise leave me alone to get on with my life.
But where does just cause come from without intelegence? The 2 are by no means mutually exclusive and surely it is naive to consider it so?
