I think this is the other side of the argument and I do have a lot of sympathy for the points you have raised. I also agree that there is a potential for abuse of power. Unfortunately we have to deal with the world as it is rather than how we would like it to be.
It's all well and good to criticise the black community for having black member groups, but have you actually asked if they stop white people from joining? I'm sure they don't have a rule, especially as if you look on their website there are 2 white members on their Unity March. There aren't a lot of white rights protection groups because, through out the majority of western history, white people haven't been persecuted because of the colour of their skin. They haven't been shipped from their homes to be slaves and they haven't been denied access to a fair life through the discriminatory actions of others.
seriously John, you need to stop reading the Daily Mail. whites can join the NBPA. seeking equality is exactly about that. It's not about getting a better deal, just a fair crack of the whip. next you will be saying that there are no male feminists, and that men can't join feminist groups. all the research done, shows that the more equal a society is, the happier it is within itself. Given your attitude to the NBPA, do you want to ban feminism? do you think it is right that your wife gets paid less than her male colleague for doing the same job? would you then be happy that a gay male couple with the same jobs as you and your wife would then be earning more than you as a couple? would you then be having a go at gay men? That's speaking figuratively of course, not physically.
I don't have a problem with there being an MBPA or any other exclusive minority/majority group. It does not offend me that there are some organisations that would not want me as a member , their loss not mine as far as I am concerned. Lots of types of people like to stick together whether it is colour, religion or shared interests that unite them. Take mods on their scooters as an example. The problem is when they request special treatment and positive discrimination kicks in. The result appears to be negative discrimination against those that are not in that particular group. For example, the call for women only shortlists for some jobs discriminates against men and can weaken the position if it results in the best candidates being excluded.
No John, I make my self aware of serious research, example People with higher socioeconomic position in society have a greater array of life chances and more opportunities to lead a flourishing life. They also have better health. The two are linked: the more favoured people are, socially and economically, the better their health. This link between social conditions and health is not a footnote to the ‘real’ concerns with health – health care and unhealthy behaviours – it should become the main focus. Consider one measure of social position: education. People with university degrees have better health and longer lives than those without. For people aged 30 and above, if everyone without a degree had their death rate reduced to that of people with degrees, there would be 202,000 fewer premature deaths each year. Surely this is a goal worth striving for. from http://www.ucl.ac.uk/whitehallII/pdf/FairSocietyHealthyLives.pdf UCL. Is. 5 star research university. It's great. I know, I went there. Also, this. https://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/wolfson.institute/events/Wilkinson372010.pdf so that's where I derive my view point: from people who know about the subject.
I don't see a problem as others have said everyone is welcome. When I was in the fire brigade yrs back I joined the black and ethnic minority union as well as the usual fire brigade union.When I had problems with some of the management the black and ethnic minority union were great the normal union was a waste of time and wish I hadn't joined and paid there fees. Why did I join the minority union.Because im aware of racists and discrimination from my life experience.Just like the Police the Fire brigade have been found to be institutionally racist in the past so to me joining the minority union was a no brainer. We were also given a very good lecture by a senior black long time member of fire brigade about what he and other colleges suffered during there early days.He also stated although things had improved there was still a lot of work to be done.Guess that's why ethnic minority members in the fire brigade felt the need for a separate union to the main one. That senior member is now taking fire brigade to dispute over discrimination. As for me I was discriminated against by certain officers but think it was more down to the fact we couldn't stand each other than racism.Maybe the fact I had a little chat with a couple of them off duty of course didn't go down to well either.I guess they discriminated in a fair manner though as a white college ex para was also getting lots of shit from them down to personality clash.Think he ended up moving station before he did something he would regret. I ended up leaving before I did something I regretted as the hooligan tool and officers head where becoming very appealing and I was bored shitless after 12 months on station sitting around doing fuck all.Think I may have watched to much Londons burning as a youth and got the wrong impression. Would I join another black and ethnic minorities union( open to everyone).Absolutely.
You are off on a tangent again, what relevance has your post #46 got with the rest of this thread ? When I said 'You obviously see what you want to see' was referring to what you see in other peoples posts. You respond to what you think they said rather than what they actually said. The straw man should have been obvious.
If we are to debate "How to make everyone live for the same length of time on average, regardless of their family background, intelligence, etc" or "Is it still true that a woman can be paid less for doing the same job as a man?" I think new threads should be opened, although there are perhaps other websites .... Re the Black Employees association idea, last time I encountered this (I'm white, but I accept that the association in question was open to me, although I did not join) I asked several asian and black colleagues what they thought; they all said much the same - "Might have been relevant once, but no longer". To be fair, that was in the IT industry where the culture is probably rather different from that in the Police.
You make an interesting point there, Matt. I have chaired quite a few disciplinary and grievance hearings over the years, and it can be difficult to know where to draw the line between racism and the fact that some people just do not get on. Just because two people from different ethnic backgrounds don't like each other, does not mean either of them are racists, but of course, one or both of them could be.
I think it's fucking pathetic in this day and age, as a white man, if I were to start a white group at my work, I would be fucking lynched. If I were to start a mans support group, the women would throw their handbags at me... Yet it's ok the other way around? I think it's a fucking stupid idea and the cunts heading these clearly racist/sexist groups should be given a slap and told to grow up.
Is it not obvious what a fairer society has to do with racism? All forms of discrimination are wrong whether based on gender, sexuality, religion, race etc. That is why there are laws about it. However, there are many other forms of discrimination. Post code lottery The old school tie brigade - see the Cabinet as an example. The masons AND Socio economic background. Is it a coincidence that the London riots all took place in the same kinds of areas? What was the perceived grievance which sparked the riot? This maybe? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9324529/Police-forces-accused-of-race-bias-in-stop-and-search-figures.html Or this 44% of those in court for rioting were from the top 10% most deprived addresses in the UK. Equality is about more than race or gender. You can feel disenfranchised and be a white male, just as easily as a black male. The point is that fairness and equality have to become evident to all members of society.
Starting a police group specifically for black cops and excluding whites by implication of the association's title is pretty evidently unfair to whites, wouldn't you say?
But there is proven evidence of discrimination against blacks in all types of employment by white people, so it seems to me to be a sensible idea to create a way of highlighting any issues that come up, thus showing any would be racists that that kind of behaviour is unacceptable. Also, white people are not excluded just like straight people aren't excluded from supporting gay organisations. It wasn't that long ago that racism was considered acceptable by a lot of people. There needs to be a whole generation gap before racism is mostly out of existence. My children, who are 6, 5, 3 years and 2 months old will, I hope, find racism a completely crazy, incomprehensible concept because my generation, and the generation before me began to find racism less and less acceptable to the point where they will only encounter it in school books. As long as we can keep a left or right of centre government and keep the pseudo-racists away in the mean time.
The most racists are asians, more commonly Indians and the cast system. I have worked with, and still do, people who refuse blankly to be civil to others in the workplace or out because they are called Patel and its of low cast descent. Or is that not racism..
Would you, as a normal, level-headed straight white male, go into a black association, or a gay enclave, or a lesbian fetish club, just because the sign said inclusive? Thought not...
You'd be stared at and likely asked to leave if you did. To all lesbians you'd be a rapist, to all ethnics you'd be a racist. Why else would you be there?! (They may think)
Perhaps you support their cause, or perhaps you just like having stuff to do? To be honest I don't think there's a whole lot of gay pride stuff going on out here so I'm limited in my choices currently.
I think you've highlighted a different point, which is the corruption of the English language! Whilst what you've mentioned is certainly unacceptable, and involves prejudice, it can't to my mind be classed as "racism" as, broadly speaking, all those of Indian descent (or Pakistani, Bangladeshi)... are of the same race! I'm not sure how a "race" is correctly defined in this day and age, but at one time there were terms like "Caucasoid", "Negroid" and "Mongoloid", and these are not meant to be offensive words. What I am also sure of is that it does not seem sensible to describe many other groups of people as "races" (or even "Ethnic minorities") even though the "racism" term will be used if you so much as say a word against them (for example, Scots, or Muslims). It's always better to treat people as individuals!
