with the greatest of respect that's just bollox. less of a wedge, as we can control our own policy. this one size fits all is whats causing the perceived wedge 748r appears to be more clued up on the facts than me. but the nhs and police Scotland are financed by Scottish parliament already with free proscriptions. England cant manage that. with all the intellect that's based there.
that's is exactly why I think the Scots should do what they want to do. There's a vote this year - if the vote is to leave, great. If it's not, what then?
You may not Jerry, but I am afraid history tells a different story. Two industrial nations, border to border, competing. One has 55m people. The other 7 million. Approx. One pretty much has the global financial markets parked in its capital. The other has a dwindling oil and gas reserve only. And another point, I know all about Scottish invention as mentioned previously. Watt, Joule, etc. Yes Scotland is inventive. But so indeed is England and those Scottish inventors Watt for example sat on the shoulders of Boulton who drove them. An englishman. There would be no Watt or Joule or Maxwell Clark without Faraday, Newton etc and the royal society founded in England. Together we are a formidable little nation, separate we are nothing without the other. Scotland needs England just as much as England needs Scotland. I would advocate greater devolution throughout the UK as a whole as I agree that Westminster is an island. Furthermore Scotland needs to remember that The City is a law unto itself. But one which generates enormous value for the whole UK. Cirty bonus's piss me off too but sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth. Some in Scotland just wants the smooth coz theyve lost their bottle for the fight. I'm a Scotsman and I say NO! I will fight any other Scot to death who says I am no Scotsman as I want to say No. Like I will fight any scotsman who stops someone saying Yes. But I will not sit idly by pretending that independence is the panacea for all of Scotlands ills. We made our bed in 1707.
I agree with you Boots. That's exactly the view of my Scottish buddies. But I still support the Scots in having their say. To deny it would be undemocratic. But I stand by my view that if the answer is 'No" there needs to be a change in the balance of our relationship. The number of Scottish MPs in Westminster should reflect the population, not the landmass (if a Scotsman can order Lego from Amazon via email, can't they lobby their MP via email?? Do they need more MPs per head?). Maybe an agreement that Scottish MPs shouldn't vote on matters that only affect England. Possibly one of the reasons why Scotland has free prescriptions and England doesn't? I don't know and care less TBH.
Fin, I made ten points in that post and you focussed on the least important - the throwaway line. Either way, you'll get what the Scottish people want. That's great. I just have this view that the answer will be No, but we'll still have the SNP blaming England for Scotland's ailments. Or Yes and we'll still have the SNP blaming England for Scotland's ailments. Everyone has the choice to say 'fuck it, I'm going to change things regardless', or 'fuck it, I can't change anything because of the...' whatever. If things were really going to change, they would have done by now. My point about life expectancy is still valid. If the SNP gave a toss, they'd do something about it. If the people gave a toss, they'd ignore who was in government and do something about it. Blaming someone else isn't the answer. I don't think anything will really change for you post referendum.
I do. I think they will vote yes. Then Scotland will return to the 3rd world status it had before England bailed them out in 1707. Directly after a civil conflict pits the catholics against Presbyterian and brother against sister. This is the way Scottish history has gone since Alexander and David. Proponents in independence should take great heed of our history. Its cyclical and burnt deep in our psyche. But I am afraid none of the proponents understand any of the risks or have taken steps to mitigate against them. None whatsoever. They will blindly lead the Yes sheep to the economic slaughter of the global economy like children. Once again England will foot the initial bill and the Scots will pay for it dearly for generations. Scotland is risking its future on the roll of some dice, and they wont even be at the table.
i hate the inter web for this, don't always portray the sentiment. no one i know blames the English. no one i know is walking about thread bare because of the English. very few people i know are a happy with the status quo either. devo max would be the best option but was denied.
i dont think they will vote yes, but more consessions are being made weekly, so was it real a wast of time? a boot's your on the wind up, i can tell. here have another one of these. :Finger:
Fin, its there. Trust me. I can have either accent. Scots or English, depending upon how long ive been back home. (after a week i am full blown brogue) Thus when out drinking in Glesgae, Edinburgh, Dundee or wherever Ive been abused as an englishmen and had several fights. Me. I am totally unviolent and easy going. But Ive had to resort to fisty cuffs with drunken twats who see my accent as an excuse. I will state though, for the record, that it was mostly that shit hole glasgow, but i was also nearly stabbed in Stenhouse Edinburgh for being english. You and your kin Fin may be the decent scots that represent the majority of us, but we do have our fair share of twats too. Next time, take an english mate down to a pub in sauchiehall and make him wear a stab proof vest.
I'm not on a wind up Fin. :Wideyed: When you have been forced into County Dancing and other cultural rituals once the SNP have their way, then I will say "I Told You So" so often you will put a contract out on me. I might consider sending you some food parcels afterwards and record a song for your children.
dude i am from the Glasgow area, i have never witnessed it, i drank regularly on sochihall street.(maybe it's something to do with your personality. teehee :smile . i would say it's a bit more prevalant up here on the west coast to be honest. more so when i worked in Aberdeen.for reasons i think i understand don't necessary agree with tho.
I think we agree on quite a bit Jerry. I am sure we both believe in fairness and tackling problems sensibly? Having lived north and south it is absolutely clear to me that the problems faced by SE England and Scotland are very far apart. Exemplified by the popularity of UKIP in England, but they don't do anything here. From where I sit, it looks like England is about to say "f*** it Europe, we are out". scotland needs immigration. If there is a yes vote there won't be any Scottish MPs in Westminster. There have been too many MPs per head in the past, may well still be the case, but that had nothing to do with special treatment for Scotland. At the time of the Act of Union the population of England was 3 times that of Scotland. So although never equal partners, there was still substantial influence. Today the ratio is 10:1. Our voice is lost and our influence gone. There is no point in voting in a general election. Our votes mean nothing, electoral data proves this. If voting patterns were similar across the whole of the UK or even if there were a meaningful version of PR, the last sentence would be meaningless. However, we have ridiculous model of democracy, and we go off tound the world interfering other countries we never install a first past post system. From another viewpoint scottish mps should most certainly should not be voting on English matters. The fact they are is just wrong. Whichever way you look at the union as it is, it is not functioning in a healthy manner, and if it does not change it will implode. Everyone in the UK should be using this debate to stop and analyse the situation, so that if there is a no vote, we can work together to come up with something better than we have now. That's why I think this thread is useful but only once people ignore the press and find the truth. My view of independence is one where we would have our own currency. Oil backed currencies are generally rock solid. The view of Gavin McCrone, in his report in the early 70s is that it would be the hardest currency in Europe. I don't think we should worry about joining the EU either. I would quite happily follow Norways model of membership of EFTA. I would hope we would have the opportunity to hold referenda on EU membership and which currency would be used. I would not be surprised if a deal where done which allows Trident to stay on the Clyde and we form a monetary union with rUK. I would be interested to what Bootsam thinks about the McCrone Report. Care to comment? For me it gives us every right to moan. The people who live in Scotland have their pride and if the Establishment (not English people) keep telling them they are subsidised the reaction is only ever going to be one of "don't subsidise me then" If we are worse off then fine, at least we will have the power to do something about the situation. At the moment we can't. To go back to Stu's point, I don't believe in DevoMax because it will only cause more problems. DevoMax was born out of the rhetoric of the likes of Lord Monkton and Baroness Warsi. Did I mention it was The Establishment that is causing the problems, not the people of these islands.
Scotland needs immigration because we all fuck off down south for the weather and money and to get away from the goddamn midges and The Scotsman and Scottish Mail types who remain behind. Ive not read the McCrone report. If there were 100+ yrs of oil and gas then fine. But there isnt and furthermore if we keep burning oil and gas all of this will be irrelevant. Fossil fuels are a poisoned chalice and no basis for currency the way the world is heating up. Once again we are 50yrs out of touch. Base it on renewables or some other magic bean.
