And... Playing "Devil's Advocate" here for Pete - Could we not make an argument that as even the most brilliant minds in the world discover more and more about the universe, and yet still cannot begin to explain how it all started, that actually makes God's existance more likely, not less ?
[QUOTE="gliddofglood, post: 478322, member: 622 Science and religion are not comparable in this way, no matter how many times you say they are.[/QUOTE] Couldn't agree more. Shame others dont continually use sceince as a bettering ram for faith, eh And its a shame you excellent thread descened, very quickly, into the usual bashing
"All basically being pacifist"? If only. Have you read any of the Koran at all? Islam is not pacifist in any sense - it was always warlike from the beginning. A Muslim could only be a pacifist by going against a large number of verses.
Pete - why do you choose to define faith as believing in something that is not true ? That is not necessarily the case... I have faith in the fact that an aeroplane will arrive here in three days time to take me back to the UK. I have faith in the fact that it will actually fly, and will get me home... You cannot say that these things are not true. Lots of people have faith in all sorts of things that may or may not be true - the fact that you choose to define them as not true does not, necessarily, make them untrue...
A huge body of work does indeed make predictions about Quantum effects and is repeatable, Ignorance or inability to understand this does not falsify the work. Holding onto the idea that its all just theory is blind faith in a doctrine..... Oh hang on a minute, i see why you hold that view now.
Just because the event has not happened yet does not mean that it will definitely not happen, after all is that not what faith is?
This just isn't so. Quantum theory has become so successful because it makes predictions (from the maths - the language of logic). Those predictions can be tested by experiment - with measurable results. It's not "assumption" and "hypothetical results". There are applications of quantum theory in computers (they are now beginning to talk about "quantum computers" as microchips have got about as small as they can, with some circuits going down to atomic sizes), computer security, semi-conductors. Quantum theory is pretty mad, completely counter-intuitive, but apparently that is how the world is. The application of quantum theory is probably in your house, just like electricity. It's just that you haven't noticed. As for religion, as I have said, I didn't bring it up. If you want to believe in religion and it makes you happier, be my guest.
Point of order here: faith is not a belief in something that is untrue. It's more accurate to say that it's a belief in something without any scientific attempt to test, prove, disprove or otherwise analyse thing you believe in. I have faith that my Ducati will start tomorrow morning - despite all evidence indicating how unlikely that will be - but it could still end up happening.
I suspect you are comparing predictions of future events (which are very hard to predict) with measurement of actual facts (which is rather easier). Forecasts are rarely accurate and often quite wrong; measurements based on observable facts are increasingly accurate and often quite right.
Ridiculing a person on account of their beliefs is rather like ridiculing a mentally ill person on account of their delusions. Ridicule the beliefs, ideas and doctrines by all means - that is not the same as ridiculing the person.
The best way of thinking about this is to imagine a balloon being blown up. It's not that the air is all leaving the centre to congregate on the inside edge of the rubber. It's that the molecules of air are all moving away from each other and the air as a whole is becoming less dense. So in the expanding universe, the matter is getting further and further apart from itself, it is becoming less dense. So there is no "hole" in the middle. The universe is "the universe" ie: the sum total of everything. There is no emptiness for it to expand into, if there were, that would be part of the universe. The balloon, if you like, is all that there is. Not easy to understand these things - and I don't claim to - but fascinating to think about them.
I've also heard the balloon analogy. It's hard to explain. Think of the three-dimensional universe as being the two-dimensional surface of the balloon (that's the tricky part). Think of galaxies as being drawings on the surface of the balloon. When you inflate the balloon, you will see the drawings get further and further away from each other as the surface of the balloon expands. In the physical universe, this is how, observationally speaking, almost all the galaxies are moving away from each other. You could say that space itself is expanding. The expansion of the universe is usually referred to as "inflation", which ties in nicely with the balloon analogy.
Semantics here. You believe that it is likely the plane will arrive, and you believe that the plane will fly. These beliefs are based on past experience and well-known facts. The beliefs are not based on arbitrary assertions about supernatural entities, they do not depend on doctrines set out by religious leaders, and they are not to be found in ancient books. If the beliefs came from those sources, it would be proper to call them "faith". Knowledge (or at least expectations) based on evidence is a source of belief; ideas backed by no evidence at all constitute faith.
It is not surprising that some parts of the human population lack the capacity to understand complex ideas, and fall back on simply believing in supernatural agencies. It is not surprising that some unscrupulous clever people find religion to be an expedient way of manipulating naïve people to their advantage - political, financial, or sexual. It is not surprising that some people who have been brainwashed relentlessly since childhood never manage to grow up and develop their own minds. And it is not surprising that some people who understand perfectly well that religions are fabricated have to keep their mouths shut if they want to avoid being shot, blown up, or tortured. What really is surprising though is that there is a small residual element of people who apparently are not of low intelligence, not brainwashed, not threatened, and not out to gain power or wealth, and yet who still profess faith in religion. Perhaps there is some obscure psychological or psychiatric effect being manifested, for which there is as yet no known cure.
