I don't disagree, but to play devil's advocate, who is to judge whether our way of life is superior culturally, politically or morally? There is no world government to impose a global cultural standard (and may that ever remain so) and there is no possibility of all mankind agreeing on a definitive interpretation of the "right" way to live. There is only the way each of us would prefer to live and we gravitate towards like-minded souls and in co-operation form societies around such preferences. What one society celebrates as enlightened freedom another may abhor as the darkest depravity and vice versa. We can cajole, persuade and try to exert influence by example; we can agree on international law, rules by which nations interact with one another, but we will never adopt an international cultural standard on which we all agree. The only consensus we can hope for is to agree to disagree, accept that we will never live in a world without borders and boundaries, defend to the utmost what is ours and accept as a condition of life that others who are not like us will do the same. But we won't because we're all moral imperialists, convinced that the solution to the other man's problem is for him to become like us.
I see your point. But I feel, that if people immigrate to your country, they are in some way your guests. You don't have to come. You probably weren't especially encouraged to do so. To show up and then demand that your host country accepts your values is just impolite and screwed up. Now, you might say that the West is trying to impose its values on places like Iraq and Afghanistan and I would entirely agree with you. We shouldn't be trying to impose democracy in those places. It's not their thing. But that doesn't mean that people who want their lives, legal system and politics to be ruled by a mediaeval book should be given credence in countries where countless people have died fighting for the freedoms we now have. In our society, our values trump theirs and that is all there is to it. In their society, they should do as they please, so long as that doesn't include trying to export their mediaeval outlook to us, either.
Pete1950 The objective of the IRA was a united Ireland and an end to the border around the six counties. The objective of the Islamists is the destruction of civilisation, the end of freedom and democracy, and the total submission of the whole world to religious tyranny and ignorance for ever. There is nothing remotely equivalent between them. I didn't mean to infer an equivalence between our Irish friends and the recent savagery. I only meant to show that attacking economic targets is what is likely to get the attention of westminster. Unfortunately, killing people less so.
Agreed. But it must be a two way street. I don't think our values trump theirs wholesale but it is our belief in the right of the individual to choose how he should live and to challenge or to vote with his feet without fear of reprisal which matters.
I'm afraid I don't like the idea of segregated swimming pools. So I think our values do trump theirs. Na!
i was watching q.time last night, i found my self thinking.yes we do we have the right to insult a nation. but should we? during all the ref debates on here, on a personal level, i never gave a monky's, i have never worked in a p.c environment, so learn't a million way to call someone a c..t , but when i felt the nation was getting a kicking, that was a different story. normally not a prob but this was an important issue to us, obviously i wasn't going to go out and start shooting people, but there was very little love being felt. so just because we can, should we go around insulting peoples beliefs via the media? cartoons of mohamid and the like.especially one so important to them self's?. wheres the respect?. is it tit for tat?.
Slaughtering journalists because you don't like what they printed is NOT "tit for tat". And as you said yourself "I wasn't going to go out and start shooting people". We've got to get past the stage of trying to justify what these barbarians are doing.
100% we should insult any and all religious beliefs. Religious leaders tell people what is ok and what is not ok, how to behave, what they can eat, when they can work, how to dress. They deserve to be insulted at every opportunity. Islam in particular seems to me especially unpleasant and probably hypocritical. Look at their attitude to women or homosexuals for example. Where is the respect from them ?
it was always said that the IRA would not be allowed to bomb its way to the negotiating table. But that's exactly what happened. As I said, above, if we had a daily Charlie Hebdo atrocity the establishment's reaction would be quite different as it would had it been one of the mainstream publications that had been attacked.
tit for tat?we need to stop taring people with the same brush. i read with interest petes definition of a muslim, typical lawyer speak. i beleive you can be a Muslim and have absolutely no intention of beheading people. maybe its different up here, less overcrowding or too fu.king cold to go out and start trouble. but i dont see or hear the the tensions you guys seem to experience. unless its on the box of coarse. i am in no way condoning the shooting by thees nutters and once caught should be fed slowly in to a sander slowly by the feet. i dont see it as a muslim problem but a nut job problem, nor do i want to live by sharia law, only you the voters can stop that.
Exactly probably no faith is more critical of other faiths than Islam - a point well made by that Muslim jihadist turned gamekeeper who founded the Quillam foubdation to counter extremist views. The penalty for trying to convert a Muslim to another faith and for a Muslim who renounces his faith is death FFS! What is there to respect about that? And if their god were so powerful, would he really be worried by a few cartoons? Islam means submission ... that itself is quite revealing. Like all religions, it's about control of the majority by a minority. The Romans knew that and so were quite content to let "the meek inherit the Earth" while they took all the gold and drank all the wine and got on with building an empire.
Beheading people is a bit extreme for anyone but Muslims will not criticise Muslims and silence is consent.
I was thinking about these things as I walked to work. The politicians like to say that fundamentalist Islam has nothing to do with normal every day Islam. That sounds simple, but is it? I know what fundamentalist Islam thinks about the following things, but I'd like to know what mainstream Islam thinks about them: Homosexuality Infidels (unbelievers) Blasphemy Alcohol Sharia law Wife beating The veil We are told that Islam is "the religion of peace". Hmmm. It was also on the radio that some poor bastard is going to get 50 lashes every Friday for a year in Saudi Arabia, apparently for hosting a website that the authorities didn't like. We are good friends with Saudi Arabia. Supposedly.
deffo, fear?, where are the security forces getting there info from, infiltrators or the muslim community
I don't think it is fear, I believe it is more deeply rooted than that. Muslims will not criticise Muslims. The Koran is the word of God. Islam comes before everything, family, friends and country.
You need to wake up mate. You are part of the problem. Take a look at the cartoon below and you will see why I say that. While moderate Muslims and their "holy men" look the other way, the terrorists will flourish. The day a single Muslim breaks ranks to shop one of his fellow adherents, I will change my mind. Islam calls for apostates to be killed. Islam calls for anyone who tries to convert a Muslim to another faith to be killed. What's moderate about that - or indeed a faith whose god is absolutely terrified of being ridiculed by a bunch of cartoonists? Typical of you, and rather silly, to blame the shootings on overcrowding in the big bad city. Do you think they would have gained worldwide notoriety for their cause by offing a few Aberdeen Angus or grouse up your way? The shootings took place in Paris and not an underpopulated area because that's the country's hub and, therefore, where Charlie Hebdo is located. Fresh air may be good for your health but not cognitive functioning, obviously!
