Okay, here's how my day deteriorated..... Received Ignitech unit yesterday, pretty good going as I only ordered it at the beginning of the week. This morning I checked the TDC mark with a degree wheel .... spot on, which was nice. Pulled the side cover off and reset the pickups to standard. Only lost about quarter litre of oil due to precarious leaning of bike with bricks under one side of paddock stand. Excellent. Refitted cover etc. Started bike and checked timing marks with strobe .... both tickover and advanced marks right on the nose. Removed ignition units and plugged in Ignitech, as yet unmounted to anything. First problem ... which side plugs to which plugs? Solved this by trial and error ... first go it started on 1, so tried the other way and it started OK but sounded pretty uninterested. Obviously the generic 4 stroke advance curve is not suitable. Tried connecting computer with borrowed lead but no go, even after hours downloading and instaling various drivers. Gave up and went to Maplins. 20 quid later we have lift-off. At which point I find myself a) out of my depth trying to design a sensible advance curve and b) starting to succumb to CO poisoning. Nothing I did made the bike sound very happy and everything I did made it stumble when giving it a blip from just off tickover (something it was happy to take on stock ignition backed off 3 degrees). And I can't think of a decent way to secure the unit within the constraints of the length of the supplied cable .... I'd been hoping for enough length to reach the tool tray. SO ..... can anyone give me a list of break-points and degrees that are proven to work and deter pinking, to get me started in safety? And some example mountings? I'd really be most grateful, as would my long-suffering neighbours who have spent the afternoon watching Wales beat France to the tune of an out-of-tune v-twin being lambasted in my garage, doors open to attempt to gain some oxygen. Cheers Grunt
Which pre installed bike are you using on the software ? Select classic 1 lobe 1or2 pickup. http://www.ignitech.cz/exe/tcip4_v80.exe
Hi Imola Well, I thought that's what I started with but the software I recieved with the box is installed on lap top & wife is playing with that at the moment so I dare not check. I must say that the generic map on the link you sent seems to look far more sensible than I remember the one I started with this afternoon looking. Had you noticed that the map stays the same whatever bike you select? The advance looks to cap at 32 btdc, which I guess is safe. Have you had any pinking issues just using this generic map? And have you played with the mapping at all?
In a word ..... no. I loaded up the generic map this morning and went for a short ride. The snatchy advance was certainly cured. Unfortunately the bike was about as flat as a 250 until about 5k, at which point it started to go, but certainly no better than with the standard set up. I then played with the curve a bit, giving earlier and steeper advance but never rode it because anything I did resulted in lots of farting and banging and general unwillingness to rev at all .... on the stand. I then loaded up the data from a guy on Monster.org, same spec (more or less) as my engine, which he reckons is superb and the thikng sounded even sicker. I could have a dodgy box, I 'spose. btw, where have you mounted yours? With the length ofcable available the best I could think of was to wedge it intol the space vacated by one of the ignition units, wrapped in a bit of bubble wrap. Trouble is the tank seems to rest on the top of the wiring plug .... might have a bearing but there's no marking to the wires as yet. Can't get a steady strobe picture either, which I could with the stock set-up. I'm going to refit the stock stuff in the week (can't be arsed to retard the picjk-ups until I find it runs OK) to make sure I've not buggered anything up and then see about getting my money back ..... salthough I dare say Hell'l freeze over first. Any chance of a chat on the phone some time .... I feel in need of some wise words. Cheers Grunt
Hi Grunt, After our phone conversation i have been thinking! I'm now 99% sure you have a dwell timing fault on the coils for discharge. Try changing the dwell timing on the software ?
Indiecourier, I had no problems when fitting mine but the default map it comes with allows it to run but doesnt particularly match the bike, will get my latest map for you tomorrow, am not running hi-comp pistons but have used it with Dyna Coils gapped at 50thou, worked fine with the standard coils as well. Re the install I'll take a few pics and post if I can figure out how to, also good write up here:BikeBoy.org - Ducati 2V Carb Model Ignition – Reducing advance, Ignitech TCIP4 and stuff
Popped out and plugged into the bike here goes: 900SS Mapping Existing Ducati Kokusan Base 6deg until 1.7krpm then to 32deg at 2.6k up to final rpm Pederzini 1.1 Base 6deg until 1.7krpm then t0 30deg at 2.8k up to 8k then retard to 20deg Ignitech TCIP4 From reading Brad Blacks article and checking with Ignitech, if I have it right then: Base advance for the 900SS is 6deg, if set higher on the Ignitech then this retards across the whole map, eg if you set as 10deg then it is retarded 4deg for the whole range. There is a delay in the unit from 4k upwards. If you want 32deg at 4k then add 1=33, 5k add 2=34 and so on, if you have the latest unit then this delay has been reduced slightly. Below is correct up to 5k when measured with a decent strobe, above that I need a dyno to check. Original Ignitech map base set to 10deg 1.5k 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k 9k 10 15 20 27 35 35 35 35 35 less 4 deg 6 11 16 23 31 31 31 31 31 effective allowing for lag 6 11 16 22 29 28 27 26 25 Motorbike type Classic(1 lobe,1 or 2 pickup) my latest map with base advance set to 6deg, limiter at 8.5k, bike is standard except for open airbox, stage 2 dynajet and Scorpion cans with baffles, I fitted the Ignitech in conjunction with a pair of Dynacoils, starting and bottom end pick up much improvedand backside dyno tells me crisper across the rev range, still need to dyno it again though when I've finished rejetting the carbs. 800 1200 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k 9k 12 8 30 32 33 34 35 36 37 33 Hopefully the will help......Mike
Gentlemen Thank you so much for your time ..... very much appreciated. Latest on my Ignitech adventure is that, after a complete failure of the unit following my efforts, I've sent it back to Czecho. I await news of its arrival and thier verdict. I've also more or less demanded a longer adaptor cable and if they still refuse I shall set my Czech friend Pavel on them! I've been watching an American forum and find that there have been so many failures with these units that CA Cycleworks have stopped having anything to do with them. Hmmm! Anyway, given that they return me a working unit, I will try Mike's map, based on Brad's delay findings, but with the ultimate advance figures backed down 3 degrees. Thanks again for your help. Cheers Grunt
Well I will join in as trying to get my head around this but for a monster 900 flywheel which I assume is the same advance wise as 900ss carbed. To get my facts right for figures, assuming flywheel is not tampered with: Minimum effective stock advance is 6 degree Maximum is 32 degree Original Ignitech map as quoted above: - base set to 10deg 1.5k 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k 9k 10 15 20 27 35 35 35 35 35 less 4 deg 6 11 16 23 31 31 31 31 31 in my case then 3 8 13 20 28 28 28 28 28 Now David correct me here if I am wrong. My numbers are based on a fact that we have retarded the ignition by 3 degrees on flywheel due to high comp pistons. Seems now a bit low does it not especially if you take the lag in to equation? DeadWeight figures you gave for your bike are they as imputed to ignitech or are they your bike with other ignition not taking in to account the 4 deg retardation and lag in stock ignitech setup? I mean those figures minus first two obviously. 800 1200 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k 9k 12 8 30 32 33 34 35 36 37 33
Lucazade, The figures : 800 1200 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k 9k are as input into the Ignitech unit with Base advance set to 6deg. 12 8 30 32 33 34 35 36 37 33 I did check the actual timing against TDC and adjusted the pick ups as they were out of adjustment slightly (about 1deg lag and 1 deg advanced on tother)..worth doing for accuracy. Just a thought but why not leave the flywheel pick ups as standard (6deg) and set the base advance of the ignitech to 9deg, retards 3deg across the range that way? Mike
Because both my pickups are already retarded. So in essence we do the same math to yours except skip removing the 4 deg. that would be removed if base advance was 10. - BTW I wanted it retarded just in case I am forced to run stock CDI if ignitech fails. As such your map seems a bit more acceptable to my bike, especially low down where it struggles. My Min degree would be 3 and max 29 based on that my actual map would be: 1.5k - 2k - 3k - 4k - 5k - 6k - 7k - 8k - 9k - 10k 3 23 25 25 25 25 25 25 20 18 - using your numbers in ignitech this would be my actual timing with lag taken in to it. 3 8 13 19 26 25 24 23 22 21 - what I am currently running on in ignitech shown as actual timing with lag counted in. Bike struggles and is underpowered till about 3k and then picks up but idling is perfect, when hot idle is bang on 800 RPM if I want to with +/- 50 RPM as per my tester but I run it about 1100 just in case of cold snap as FCR's have no choke.
Also just had an idea as well. You said you checked your timing against TDC and it was out by 1 degree. As you can check if it is out by retarding or advancing would it not be easier to adjust your map by that 1 degree one way or the other? At the end from that post on bikerboyz all that is limiting you is that you can not go below minimum and maximum degree defined by your flywheel. So if I get it correct you can not go over actual 32 deg or in my case over 29 deg and that is all I need to know. If that is the case you setup your map on ignitech, then go and do the timing and TDC to see what it actually is at and adjust ignitech accordingly to that. Oh one more my ignitech only allows me setup from 1.5k rpm do you have setting for below that?
To answer above, the two pick ups differed and using the Classic bike type you cannot adjust them individually on the ignitech hence my setting them to be identical for front and rear to get round the problem. Re.1.5k rpm, you can input values for the rpm as well as the advance on the version I have, suggest you take another look?? Agree that you will not go over 29deg, from Brads arcticle you have a 6 to 32deg spread on the flywheel and if you retard then you have a 3 to 29deg spread. When setting mine up I tried to soften the curve too much at the bottom end, this gave a few problems on pickup until I got the curve a bit closer to the original kokusan, I think the symptoms you describe resemble this? I ended up plotting various curves on graph paper to give myself a better idea of what was happening using the kokusan as a starting point then measuring with a strobe....Mike
Well I been experimenting today and noticed I can adjust rpm spread. I have fixed low end bugging down and made the response better. All seems fine but as I near heard the pinging sound would not know. Bike seems to sound normal.
Used this as base: A short ignition study My current setup 1.2k 1.7k 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k 7k 8k9k 17 24 30 32 33 34 35 36 37 33
Lucozade, that looks close to the curve I'm using but retarded by 3deg across the range by your adjusting the pickups.....Mike
Yep until me get a strobe light I am playing it safe, low end bugging down that I attributed to FCR's is much better. For day to day riding I can say it is gone but it could be better. The first 3 jumps are worth a tune as bike just rockets off in comparison. One thing I did notice. Made the change to map with new rpm spread and idle was as per normal 1050 - 1100. I slowly opened up the throttle to 9k rpm then let it go but bike never went back to idle below 1200. It stayed at 1400 - 1500. I had to adjust the fast idle cable down to get it to drop. It was still idling ok below 1200 but at 900-1000 RPM. It seems timing in that range made it burn fuel much better so higher revs were left as side effect.
