Trail Breaking And Counter Steer

Watch the likes of Marques and they can be trail braking well into the bend and it is probably the single most common cause for the front tucking. At the novice level most advise you to get your braking done in a straight line but as you get more confident that advice changes and you start to combine body position and later braking and at this point, it's when trail braking begins to make sense. I'm definitely middle pack inter standard and find I'm not quite comfortable trail braking up to the apex but still braking a lot later than some. Andy

 

Morning CR, for me, it's not a percentage thing, it's a feel thing, dependent on track condition, tyre temp, the type of corner etc etc. I don't think there is a definitive answer. For me personally, I passive steer while braking hard, and if not at the apex by the end, then a good shove tips it in, but I don't think its that simple to explain, it should be more one fluid movement of lean, brake and active steer. From the little experience I have, its definitely about feel and confidence in the front, and once you pass this limit, the metal noise happens. It pains me to say, having slung a few up the road, that its the only way to find out

 

CSS rules suggest finish your braking then turn.

Corser suggests most modern riders (Marquez incl) don't do the big counter steer shove now, it's more to do with pressure on the outside bar rather than inside bar.

It's all so confusing

 

I agree Bradders about the confusion, and do not think there is a set rule for any given track, corner or bike. Having spoke with many inter and fast riders over the years, everyone seems to do it different solely based on what they are feeling the front do...

 

I'm currently working with a small team from TVAM to deliver "Look, Lean and Roll" training to IAM associates and counter or positive steering is the hardest thing to explain and demonstrate. I'm going to say I do it passively because it's a totally automatic, I don't make a concious decision, I just do it. Andy

 

What Andy said...... It's automatic. Doh, why could I not find that word this morning

PS, I wasn't suggesting you crash to find the limit of your braking, was merely pointing out what happened to me on a few occasions trying to find how hard I can steer and brake, which is why I ain't no Marc Marquez

 

It was indeed 5 times, but he has more bikes than me

 

ROFLMAO....I think not, I would give internal body parts for just one of his senses

 

Yes. Try this to test what he means.

1) Ride in a straight line and hang off the bike as if going into a corner.
2) Notice how much pressure is on the outside (left bar for RHS turn) to keep it straight
3) Release the pressure and see how the bike falls in

Context: it's about being ready way before the corner and braking, and as you get to your turn point release brake press and bar pressure in similar measures

I was working on feet position a bit last night while out and I concluded it's going to need a leg waggle before corner entry to make it easy

 

I find counter-steering fascinating.

For me, the clue is in the name and it is very much not automatic.

I had never heard of it until about 15 years ago and was amazed at how effective it is when I tried it. As I said though, it has never been automatic for me and I had to train myself to do it, it was a new trick for this old dog.
I know nothing about track riding but for me and my knee-up road riding, the overwhelming use for counter-steering is to tighten a line in order to avoid running out of road. I found that an absolute revelation.
As with the pendulum illustration, it is interesting to ride straight and level and shove say the right bar forward. the bike reacts by leaning right. Imho, because the forces are forced out of balance and it is the resultant leaning right that makes the bike turn right, not the fact the bars are turned left.
In what is for me, normal, steady seat of the pants riding, as you lean and turn right, the bars will automatically turn to the right.
If you doubt this, try wheeling a bicycle along by the saddle and turn it right by leaning it right, the bars will turn to the right.
If you take your hands off the bars of your motorbike and lean right to turn, the bars will do the same thing.
This would make a fascinating subject for research. It's very difficult to determine the exact mechanism we use for turning our two-wheeled vehicles as it is so automatic and instinctive but one thing is for certain, they won't turn at all if the wheel won't turn.

This is very controversial and I fully expect to get strongly disagreed with but I've given it a fair bit of thought and this is how I see it.

 

I'm not saying the wheel doesn't point the 'wrong' way, it has to if you push it that way. I'm saying imho it's the forced unbalancing of the otherwise balanced forces that results from that that makes the bike lean more and therefore turn tighter.

 

I have to disagree a little, every single turn you have ever made is counter steering, you don't pull a left bar to turn left, you passively push it, mostly without being aware.