Everyone counter steers, it's physics, just that some do it harder than others. But many bikers do t believe that. Not quite cream: it more release presseure from a bar than add new pressure by c-steering the other. The if a final shove is needed to make an apex you can add some to the inside bar.
So the "quick flick" as Code calls it is out of date as its wrong full stop or its wrong on modern bikes/tyres? Would certain styles/techniques suit certain age bikes? Should I watch WSBK from 2003 as my bike is 14 years old.
No, you should ride and judge every turn by feel, going back to the start of this thread, there is no set percent or method, you ride by feedback and give the bars appropriate force for what is happening with the front
That may very well be true but if it is, why did I have to literally train myself to counter-steer?? I think this subject needs some proper research so we all understand exactly what's going on. If you ride no hands, there is no pushing or pulling of the bars at all and I've ridden bicycles a lot with no hands, so on that basis at least, I would dispute that every single turn has been made by unconsciously pushing the inside bar... As I said, try pushing and steering a bicycle by the saddle. The bars turn into the turn, not away, it really isn't simple.
Seems other coaches advocate it's out of date, even on older bikes as tyre technology is better. Some, like crafar, use coasting into a corner too. I use CSS model because I hate trail braking, it's not natural for me and I struggle even learning it, so hard straight line, very quick turn and on the gas before the apex works better. Just not on a 1000cc bike or in racing where people stuff it up the inside!! Do you own thing man, but if you can get good at trail braking it's better
On a bicycle, weight and centrifugal force are not as relevant, so the input is much less as is the same on a motorcycle, if you go fast on your cycle, and ignore the saddle as the input as it is then from a different origin than bars, but ride fast, pull bars left, wheel will go right. Therefore, input on a motorcycle varies with centrifugal speed. Simples......hence, there is no set percentage on effort with regard to steering
It's important to realise that act of a rider counter steering via the bars and the effect (physics) of counter steering are two separate (but connected) things. As a rider, you can consciously or unconsciously counter steer, but if a bike ever turns in another direction to the one in which it was previously travelling, it must have done so because of counter steering. Even when a bike turns via no direct input on the handlebars, counter steering (physics) must have happened. Lots of proper research has been done. Have a look at 'gyroscopic precession' and 'cone effect tyres' if you want to know about it in more detail. It is fairly simple. If the bike has started upright and travelling in a straight line and you had an ultra-slow motion film of the front wheel, you would see it momentarily turn the opposite direction to the eventual turn. It's this moment of gyroscopic precession that causes the wheel to tilt into the turn direction. Once the turn has occurred, the system reaches equilibrium and the wheel follows the turn.
Or if you're British you are likely to have a hypothetical cricket bat more readily to hand than a hypothetical baseball bat.
,Just to clarify, my understanding is this .. If you turn a motorcycle by input through the handlebars, it is always 100% countersteering. There is simply no other way that the physics adds up. The bike will turn due to other inputs too eg through the pegs or by body positioning, throttle, brakes etc, but any input at all through the bars acts as countersteering. Gyroscopic precession theory states that, if you consider three axes at 90deg to each other (ie two horizontal in both fore/aft and transverse directions, and one vertical) then if a body is spinning about one axis and an input is applied to turn it about one of the other two, the net effect is to make it turn about the third axis instead. In the case of a wheel rotating about the transverse axis (ie the wheel spindle) if an input is applied about the vertical axis (the steering stem) the wheel will want to turn about the third axis (fore/aft, horizontal) ie it will lean/bank over. It just happens that the physics mean that it leans the "other" way, ie it causes the opposite effect to the expected direction of turn. I've done the sums in engineering study years ago. This is a direct and instantaneous effect .. it is not the case that the wheel turns initially in the "correct" direction and then reacts in the "counter" direction a moment later .. its all one process. To put it another way, the rider puts a countersteering input to the bars, but there is no output which turns them in that direction .. the physics switches it around such that the bike leans. Thee is no actual "counter-turning" of the bars at all, merely an input in that direction. You may be interested in my experimentation on my trials bike in the 1980s. Commuting to work, I regularly used to approach a particular smooth, 90deg right hand bend, flat out (only 55mph) while sitting on my left hand and holding a steady throttle using only the crook between the thumb and forefinger of my open right hand. In other words, the only input that it was possible to put in at the bars was to push the right hand bar, ie to turn left. I took that bend in that manner every weekday for a couple of years. It felt exactly the same as "normal". There is obviously other stuff going on, involving castor angles etc, but that is my understanding of the countersteering mechanism in isolation. The better you understand the situation, the easier it becomes to add in other factors like trail braking etc. It can take a lifetime of riding to tune it all in though, and I'm only just beginning to explore trail braking myself, having grown up believing that any braking during the turn was a bad thing. It does seem to me that it is useful in preventing the bike sitting up when braking in the turn, but I seldom ride aggressively enough on the road to need it. I can see that it would be more useful in a trackday situation though.
Mounted an action cam this week low near front wheel. Interesting to see it point to the right when turning right even though I'm counter steering to get the line tight. Must be putting a lot of work through that bit of rubber.
Interesting. The way I see it, countersteering makes the bike lean but not necessarily turn. It's perfectly possible to give the bars a shove when upright and make it lean but still track straight. The trials bike illustration is interesting because at very slow speed there is no precession to speak of and turning the bars right will very much turn the bike right. Lots of leaning and body English required to maintain balance though. Imho, counter steering is a way of turning the bike but by no means the only way, although it is an incredibly effective means of tightening a line.
I too have tried riding both bicycle and motorcycle in a similar fashion with minimal input to the bars by using one fingertip only on a bicycle and if I try to steer by means of countersteering only, it sort of works but feels horrible, so I'm pretty sure that I'm not normally steering by countersteering alone, even if it does come into it.
