Trail Breaking And Counter Steer

Yes, I agree when it comes to dropping the bike into the lean, but what about once it gets to a lean angle and stays there for a time going around a long corner? Creams post above reckons the wheel straightens up and then turns in towards the turn slightly which does make sense from the way it feels on the bike but I'm still not sure

 

After pointed out above, I did a bit of youtubing and think I get it fully now...the counter steer initiates a turn of direction; keep using or go too slow for the input and you fall over. Once in the turn, to carry the radius you have set for the turn, the wheel falls back into line. Again, if it didn't, you would fall over

 

The extra lean angle has to be compensated for or the bike would fall over to the inside. The compensation comes from tightening the turn to balance out the forces. The tightening comes from the wheel turning back in a little more than before your counter-steering push on the inside bar.
Once any counter-steering correction has been made and the bike is settled into a long corner, everything is in equilibrium with the front tyre tracking around the arc of the corner.
Smoothly accelerate out of the corner and the extra centrifugal force will smoothly stand the bike up. If the corner tightens on you, counter-steer to tighten your line.

 

Actually, now that I've re-read a few posts, I'm going back to my earlier statement ... confusion is creeping in.

Countersteering DOES NOT involve TURNING the bars in the wrong direction.
It DOES involve applying a TURNING FORCE in the wrong direction, but no actual turning of the bars results from this.
Instead, the physics of gyroscopic precession causes the wheel to lean into the turn.
There is no initial movement of the steering in the wrong direction, followed by a correction.

For the sake if clarity, I'll stop there this time.
With a smile.

 

Haha see this is why I keep questioning it. Sometime I'm going to put a pointer stick on my upper yoke and film it, might do it at Silverstone on Thursday. Someone must have already done it and stuck it on youtube?

 

It's all a bit playschool but still
http://www.wikihow.com/Countersteer-(Motorcycle)#Countersteering_in_the_Turn_sub
wikiHow to Countersteer (Motorcycle)
Four Methods:Preparing to CountersteerApproaching the TurnCountersteering in the TurnCountersteering on a High Speed TrackCommunity Q&A

The basic mechanics of countersteering are performed by every kid who's ever ridden a bicycle. You're already doing it if you're riding a motorcycle. At higher motorcycle speeds, however, it's important to have a basic understanding of the process of leaning into a turn, increasing the acuity of the intended turn. Countersteering doesn't mean turning your handlebars away from a turn - rather, you're pushing on the handlebar to initiate a lean. This push on the handlebar will have your wheel heading very briefly in the wrong direction, and then as a result of the lean of the wheel your bike immediately recovers and heads the direction you want to go. By understanding what countersteering is and how it works, any rider can make more controlled turns at higher speeds, steer away from hazards, and ride with less fatigue.

 

I'm with CR on this.
If you give the bars a good shove, they will move and so will the wheel and tyre and they will follow a different track as a result.
Gyroscopic precession may be involved but it is by no means the only factor here.
Bicycles and motorcycles are both single-track vehicles and the steering system is essentially identical. Steering a bicycle at walking pace is surely not going to involve any significant gyroscopic precession, there simply isn't enough mass rotating at sufficient speed. As speed of rotation and mass increase, then gyroscopic precession will increasingly apply but imho, not to the degree that it's all that matters.
Trail and rake also come into it, as they control/influence the self-steering/self-correcting characteristics of the vehicle.

 

Depends how fast you are going

h

 

Semantics isn't it? You may not 'turn' the bike but pushing forward on the bars does mean it will 'steer' in the wrong direction to turn.

An experiment I tried when actively learning this:
Ride straight with your elbows ABOVE the height of the bars (like a motox), add pressure to turn
Do the same but this time with elbows FLATTER to the bars
Notice difference: flatter your arm, easier to teen with less pressure. Hence why levers should be one of the first things to move to get ergonomics right and reduce forearm fatigue if riding on track a lot

 

Actually, go and watch vinales crash (too soon!!) from Assen in the chicane. His force thru the bars seems to be the reason he went down because the front is off the ground mid turn and he was too aggressive in his input