Quite the opposite, I'm not completely disagreeing with your sentiment, I just dont see any actual figures from you? I was trying to skip all the waffle and just compare costs to do 100 miles.
Let's go back to basics. If you are operating a vehicle, first you load it up with a certain amount of energy which you carry with you on the vehicle; then you use some kind of mechanism to convert that stored energy into motion, which carries you a certain distance. How far a given amount of energy will carry your vehicle depends on several factors, including the weight and rolling resistance of the vehicle, how fast you go, the nature of the road, and the degree of efficiency of the mechanism. All these factors vary from vehicle to vehicle, from driver to driver, and from road to road. Comparing chalk and cheese is not very informative. Anyone with a vehicle has to buy the energy which they use. As I have explained before, buying energy in the form of diesel is actually slightly cheaper then buying it as mains electricity, but the conversion of energy into motion is slightly more efficient in an electric vehicle. Overall, the actual, real cost (eliminating irrelevant factors) is roughly the same. The suggestion that energy in a battery electric vehicle is "a quarter of the cost" is simply wrong, and is presumably based on a misunderstanding. I have tried to explain this as clearly as I can. If you are still confused, well I'm sorry but I don't think I can do much about that.
There's no need for being so condescending, generally I like how informed your posts are but you just sound like some kind of Trump here. Perhaps you are talking about some other costs of producing the electricity or consumables from running the cars but from what I can see the costs to the end user of charging / filling the vehicle are £2 versus £8 respectively. There's no waffle involved, at least do me the honour of a debate and tell me where it doesn't add up? Nissan Leaf. Cost of charging battery £2, range 100 miles. 2015 Golf TDI 50l tank, range 600 miles. Costs to fill ~£60. Fuel cost per 100 miles £10
On the car front I tried a few real world things. I had heard a rumour that some were being charged more for insurance on electric cars over their exact match petrol versions, the nissan leaf/micra is probably the one most can relate too so I used nissan's own home page for figures. I then used go compare for the insurance and the prices are high because I haven't owned a car for decades so will be with no no claims bonus Nissan leaf new electric basic model 24kw £16,680, miles per full charge quoted as 124, fully comp £791 Nissan Micra new 1.0 petrol £11,995 , miles per tank around 500, fully comp £425 If you wanted to extend the leafs range then you would have to buy the 40kw version that would give you a claimed 233 miles at £26,490 The worrying thing for bikes, is can you boost that range in such a way ? and do you really want to ride a bike that sounds like your nans red painted 4 wheeled scooter Slight edit and puzzlement. On that video of the lightning it says at 4.20 minutes that they achieve what they achieve through keeping the weight down and this bike weighs 225 kgs, this puzzled me as a blackbird weighs 223 kilos dry.
I hear you on the petrol engine thing (and I'm sure @Pete1950 is coming from the same place of love). I met a lad off here with a Streetfighter that was the loudest thing this side of the galaxy and I really wanted one but if race tracks in the middle of towns became a possibility I'd happily give up the petrol engine! Like I said earlier I dont think that the developing electric vehicles will sit in the same category as sports cars and motorbikes in the future. Its nice to think that a decent proportion of commuting and travelling traffic will move to some other solution that will both clear the roads a bit for us to have fun and improve the environment as well.
I have never done that calculation and the answer it gives is not what I would have expected from the waffle we hear (I have checked the figures and you are absolutely correct). We have been led to believe that the cost of charging a battery overnight is insignificant compared to using hydrocarbon fuels, which is clearly not the case.
This has more to do with the design of the Nissan Leaf than the energy density and cost of electricity or diesel. I suspect private car ownership for many will become a thing of the past and individuals will hire or share cars when needed.
Something doesn't add up, even allowing for the mistake in the golf calculation. What is the capacity of the Leaf's battery and from that back calculate the price they are using for electricity.
Battery is 40kWh, so the price of electricity has to be 5p /kWh for a full charge to cost £2. 5p per kWh can be achieved on an overnight tariff. Problem solved. I would still buy a petrol Jazz over an electric Leaf.
If you put four times as much energy into a car, it will cost four times as much money. Do try and keep up.
https://greentransportation.info/energy-transportation/energy-density.html Personally I think we should ride around on giant pink unicorns Then again I’ve just been taking opiates for a week.
A key difference between electric and gasoline cars is the amount of energy each carries. A typical (mid-2015) electric car like the Nissan Leaf has battery pack capacity that's equivalent to about 2/3rds a gallon of gasoline. With that much energy it can travel 85 miles at highway speed, while a gasoline car would barely get 20 miles range on 2/3rds a gallon of gas. The key measurement is energy density or the amount of energy carried within a given size or weight. Even that statement is outlandish - 20 miles on 2/3rds of a gallon for a petrol car in comparison to the Leaf
I notice that the latest 2017-18 model of Leaf, according to Nissan's website, has the following characteristics: Battery holds 40 kilowatt hours Power output 110 kilowatts Range up to 235 miles. Let's take a closer look at those figures. First, 40 kilowatt hours of electrical energy, bought at average prices of 13 pence per kWh, would cost around £5.20 (ignoring the standing charge). And £5.20 would buy roughly one gallon (4.5 litres) of diesel fuel at current prices. The Leaf is like a diesel car with a one-gallon fuel tank. Nothing wrong with that as far as it goes, but that's what it is. Second, if all 110 kilowatts* (= 147 bhp) of power output are actually used, the battery will be flattened in about 20 minutes, in which time the car will have gone say 40 miles. If the driver takes it easy and uses only 40 kilowatts (= 53 bhp) the battery will last one hour and about 70 miles. If the driver creeps along at a snail's pace using only 10 kilowatts (about 13 bhp, like the power of a restricted 125 scooter) the battery could last four hours or say 100 miles. An economical diesel car with only one gallon of fuel available is in a similar position. Going fast a gallon might last 40 miles; moderate pace, 70 miles; creeping along in maximum economy mode, stretching to 100 miles. Third, what could "up to 235 miles" mean? 100 miles is certainly within the definition of "up to 235 miles". So is 70 miles. So is 40 miles. It could not be said that Nissan's advert is actually untruthful - well, not quite. But it is not obvious how the car could conceivably do anything like 235 miles. * Incidentally I have assumed 100% efficiency in converting battery power into motion, giving Nissan the benefit of the doubt.
Right I can follow that a bit easier. No one is going to make a habit of charging a car during the day if they dont have to. The figures I scraped off the internet earlier were 5p kWh which is optimistic but I can definitely get less than 8p kWh for night time rates. Point taken that it's ~11 times the range but that's a constantly moving figure and it's not going to be long before electric vehicles hit something more practical. Even 70 miles is more than enough to replace millions of city vehicles where local pollution is the worst anyhow. The average speed in London is 7mph so I'd imagine owners would be hitting the 70-100 mile range of your calculations. Comparing it to a Diesel car with a 1 gallon fuel tank because it costs £5.20 to charge (by your figures) makes no sense. Would you compare it to a diesel car with a 1/2 gallon fuel tank if it only cost £2.60 to charge? Comparing the cost to do the same range makes a lot more sense. Even using your figures and assuming the 70 miles range at £5.20 for the leaf, you'd pay £7 in the diesel.
