You could have had mine for a lot less (and still can) although I might put my asking price up a bit Andy
In effect an unused bike and likely to stay that way as to use it would destroy it's value in very short order. It's done some miles travelling about, just not under it's own power. The £25k is an estimate.
Japanese import on Belgian registration documents and I see no mention of a UK NOVA in the auction listing. All the additional admin fees and expenses are quoted in Euros, the small print alludes to Customs duties and the contact phone numbers are in Germany or France with just the payments contact in the UK. Andy
For buyers in the UK, second hand bikes imported from Japan are not as highly regarded as it is usually hard to verify service history and track any insurance claims. It is also common for European manufacturers to supply bikes to a different specification for the Asian market. I found the auction listing odd because the bike is being offered for sale in the UK but being administered in Europe, subject to non sterling charges and fees and subject to UK customs duties. Not being a UK resident, I don’t expect you to be familiar with the UK market place or the bureaucracy associated with importing vehicles into the UK. Andy
1/ The Japanese market is well known for hiding some of the finest 70s-90s European motorcycle models (Japanese people certainly like nice motorcycles as much as we do). Murayama, the official Ducati importer for Japan before the Ducati Stores era has come up with some legendary editons (“specials”) for some Ducati enthusiasts (Google « Ducati Murayama special »). 2/ Why would one think that these bikes have less value? Would we say a very low miles Honda RC30 originally sold new in London or Paris has less value than one sold in Tokyo? That would certainly make no sense to me… 3/ Why would “Buyers in the UK” feel any different about these bikes than buyers from Australia or New Zealand? Or Europe? For all I know, Japanese people drive on the wrong side of the road too (pun intended), so you guys share the same headlight lenses, for starters. Simpler when importing. 4/ Service history of a collector bike with 5 kilometers on the odo (that’s what this add says) is a bit irrelevant, in my humble opinion. Yeah, I know, belts every 2 years, yaddi, yaddi, yadda… Who is going to start this bike before changing the belts anyways? Or at all? 5/ I certainly am not a resident in the UK, but I have lived abroad a faire bit (including in England) and you need to realize each country has their own import laws and regulations. UK rules are not more restrictive than others. Just different, to some extent. It’s only a matter of doing your homework before importing goods, wherever that may be. 6/ Tracking insurance claims? Again, on a very low miles bike, not sure that should be a « no go »… Some older bikes were actually ridden long before road insurance even existed. Would that be a show stopper when buying a 1978 900 Supersport, for instance ? Not for me, personally. Now, where I do agree, is that on one hand, classic European bikes sell at very low prices in Japan at the moment. On the other hand, low miles classic limited editions bikes fetch ridiculously high prices on the US and UK markets… So someone is definitely targeting the UK collector market, trying to make a bunch of dineros on that 748R. Let’s see how the auction goes…
Bonhams literally gave away this new-old-stock yellow 748R (2002) for a mere GBP 12k (Euro 14k) on the hammer. The number #0643 748R was a Japanese import with all EU duties/customs paid (receipts in order) and with Belgian registration docs (also in order) (https://cars.bonhams.com/auction/28...0aa2b012592-engine-no-zdm748w4b003115/#photos)
Pretty sure that was the correct auction and just the point I was trying to make when the link was first posted. Turns out it wasn’t an auction in the UK as intimated, hence all the small print with European phone numbers. €16,000 including buyer’s premium is still a lot for the bike and nowhere near the £25,000 auction estimate. Andy
There was no doubt - at least to me, from the auction houses' official website (can't say about the re-posts on other sites) - that the auction was to be held entirely in Belgium. Back office/admin resources were indeed split between the UK and Belgium (which was somewhat confusing yet without any bearing to the actual auction process). The auctioneers expectation was definitely very optimistic (was Euro 25k, again on the official auction house website), in as much as it was bold in advising its listing without the safety net of a reserve. I consider that its listing in Belgium was purposeful, as the auction house anticipated that the lack of history and it being a Jap import would deter serious UK bidders. But even for EU bidders (which are more accommodating to imports due to their appreciation of how their own MOT national systems work), the price is a steal (again on the presumption that it is a genuine NOS model). Adding a cheeky perspective as well, listing it in Belgium was very insightful on part of the auction house, as imported bikes over a certain age (think its 20 odd years from the date of production) can no longer be registered for road use pursuant to EU emission laws. Belgium is the only EU country that I know of that has left a 'back door' open for the registration of such bikes (and once registered there, they can be passported anywhere as registered vehicles, whether the EU or the UK).
Just a as couple comments about the Belgian thing… First, the market in Belgium for these bikes is usually fairly low. Like in the Netherlands or Germany. We often shop for bikes over there from France. Second, I recently bought two 30+ year old bikes freshly imported from Japan (customs passed but French registration left to be done), and that was a very simple and straightforward process. EU had absolutely nothing to do with it. May be because our regulation has it that after 30 years, a vehicle is considered an « antique » if still in its original condition ? Europe regulations are not that complicated or liberty-threatening…
@Guillaume69 if you consider its market dynamics locally, then I would agree with you that the Belgian market is indeed small. Since September 2015 onwards however (being the Euro6 benchmark date), its market outreach as a jurisdiction of convenience for the registration of imports from third countries that do not meet the new EU emission requirements is much much greater (considering its appeal to Europeans as a whole). Personally, I see absolutely no reason or legal fairness whatsoever in prohibiting the registration of a new-old-stock vehicle produced in Europe in 2002 (using this 748R as an example) purely because it does not satisfy the European emission requirements in 2023 (and how on earth could it, without being a DeLorean). Thats today's EU framework for you. What you describe sounds like a qualifying FIVA import, which indeed affords a registration exception for vehicles at least 30 years old yet imposing certain limitations on their road use. If the auction house did not take the 748R through the "Belgian route" to sort its registration in 2023, that 748R would need to wait at least till 2032 (production year + 30 years) to see tarmac through the FIVA route, at least lawfully.
@Nick_996 I have never heard about « FIVA ». Don’t know what it is to be honest, but definitely willing to be educated on it. Here we have the « FFVE » (Fédération Française des Véhicules d’Époque) which deals with vehicles over 30 years old (it used to be 25 and some are trying to make it 40… Sheesh… ). In France, FFVE is the only office that can deliver an « antique » certificate which, in turn, will be necessary to get an « antique » or « collector » vehicle registration. Vehicles have to be 100% original and functional/roadworthy to qualify. There no longer are any road use limitations associated with it (there used to be until around 15 years ago, though). Quite the opposite, in fact, as these vehicles are « ULEZ » exempted. Road use limitations depend more on the vehicle insurance contract. Some companies are more restrictive than others. Personally, I have a contract with 0 limitations and I can even occasionally ride one of my « antiques » to work if I please. Importing a vehicle that’s less than 30 years old into France from outside the EU is absolutely possible. It requires a certificate of conformity (CoC) that will be delivered by the European branch of the vehicle brand. For, say, a 998 imported from the US, Ducati West Europe is the place to go, via a Ducati dealership. Not all dealerships are willing to help. You just need to know which door to knock on to. Vehicle must be euro compliant with its year of production rules. Not today’s rules. And of course, custom/taxes have to be paid (EU then home country, which can be expensive. You just need to really do you homework before you pull the trigger). That’s the only European framework I know of (I have imported a car and a bike from the US, none of which qualified as an antique vehicle). For my US imported 998 Matrix, I had to change the clocks to km/h and Celsius. That’s all. PS: We do not have a MOT for motorcycles here. Yet. Europe is trying to force it on us, but our government doesn’t want it. We’ll see how that goes…
@Guillaume69 what you locally know as FFVE is nothing more than the French arm of the global FIVA (the rules and road use limitations of which are universal across all FIVA signatory states, France included). The reason why FIVA certified vehicles get better insurance rates by the insurance providers is precisely because of their road use limitations (that flow down from their FIVA certified status). Whilst I firmly stand by the "Belgian route" as the only way left in EU in the context of our discussion, allow me to put right the following on the certificate of conformity (CoC). The EU framework introduced on 5 September 2007 (see EC Directive 2007/46/EC) obliged vehicle manufacturers to issue a single original certificate of conformity (CoC) per vehicle manufactured. This original was then submitted either by manufacturer direct (by electronic means) or by the selling dealer (in hard copy original) to the respective national ministry of transport, on the basis of which the vehicle's registration certificate was issued to the buyer. Article 18(8) of EC Directive 2007/46/EC recognised only to the manufacturer (i.e. not the distributor, not the dealer, not the ministry of transport) the right (but not the obligation) to issue a duplicate original. Therefore any and all requests worldwide for a duplicate COC for any Ducati are exclusively routed to, and by law handled by, Ducati in Bologna. The official position of Ducati in Bologna is that as all the examples of the 748/916/996/998 range were produced before this EC Regulation was brought into force, Ducati is under no obligation to issue, and will not issue, a duplicate CoC for this range (see below). What is issued by Ducati in Bologna (following a request lodged to a Ducati dealer) is what Ducati describes as a "Technical Data Sheet" which is insufficient and not acceptable for registration purposes in all EU countries (with the exception of Belgium at the moment) (again see below). The good news is that this Directive has now been repealed. The new EC Regulation obliges (at least from 2018 onwards) the manufacturer (in our case Ducati) to issue a duplicate COC, but this obligation only applies to vehicles manufactured after the date of the new regulation (thus it does not cover any example of the 748/916/996/998 range). In particular, article 36(3) EC Regulation (EU) 2018/858 expressly provides that "for a period of 10 years after the date of manufacture of the vehicle, the manufacturer shall, at the request of the vehicle owner, issue a duplicate of the certificate of conformity in paper format in return for a payment that does not exceed the cost of issuing the duplicate certificate". For the sake of completion, I note that there are certain private organisations out there (not themselves vehicle manufactures) that will issue online and for the payment of a fee a certificate of conformity for any vehicle. As they are not the vehicle manufacturer, their bespoke certificate of conformity lacks the necessary force of law to be accepted as a certificate of conformity in the EU (with the exception of Belgium at the moment, which credits this bespoke certificates as independent reports).
@Nick_996 1/ « The reason why FIVA certified vehicles get better insurance rates by the insurance providers is precisely because of their road use limitations (that flow down from their FIVA certified status). » Allow me to politely disagree on this. The main reason antique vehicles are eligible to better insurance rates is mainly due to the known better attention these vehicles get from their owners, as well as less miles per year. That is strictly based on insurance statistics, or so my insurance told me. I have two vehicles that are not yet eligible to a collector registration status but are already insured as such, as their production has ceased and they represent a specific interest in terms of automotive « hobby »: my 1996 916 SP3 and our 1999 Peugeot 306 convertible. I will convert those two to antique (by submitting a request to the FFVE) the very day they hit 30. Because in addition to less road use restrictions (I insist e.g. ULEZ), they also become protected and can no longer be written off by insurance claims adjusters, in case of accident. 2/ « Therefore any and all requests worldwide for a duplicate COC for any Ducati are exclusively routed to, and by law handled by, Ducati in Bologna. The official position of Ducati in Bologna is that as all the examples of the 748/916/996/998 range were produced before this EC Regulation was brought into force, Ducati is under no obligation to issue, and will not issue, a duplicate CoC for this range (see below). » Well, I am not sure about this either. When I imported my 2004 998 Matrix (in 2021), I received a CoC from Ducati West Europe (see below). This document was mandatory for me to register the bike in France. Bologna was not involved. Actually, when I first contacted Bologna to know how I could get a CoC, they told me to contact the nearest dealer in my country. Which I did. Again, things may differ from a country to another.
@Guillaume69 I assure you that last time I checked TLC and caring owners were not consideration variables by any underwriting standards for cheaper insurance. If they were, most (if not all) Ducati owners would be riding their pristine examples for a penny's premium. Also, what you have attached above by Ducati West Europe is not by any means a manufacturer's certificate of conformity (which I trust legally translates to Certificat de Conformité Européen in French), whether original or duplicate for that matter. It's an attestation (or plainly put a declaration) setting forth what appears to be nothing more than what the technical data sheet above does.
Holy moly! Are you for real? « Attestation d’identification véhicules importés conforme à un type communautaire » literally translates into something like: « Imported vehicles conforming to a community type identification attestation ». where « Community » refers to the EU and « attestation » being pretty much the same thing as a « certificate », where I come from. Almost synonyms, if you prefer. The Ducati logo and « Ducati West Europe » refers to the manufacturer, obviously. More simply put, it’s precisely what we call a manufacturer Certificate of Conformity. The document you posted above titles « Declaration », and as a matter of fact, this does not seem to indicate it may be accepted as a certificate of conformity. At least not over here, based on my experience. Seriously, mate, I am starting to feel like we’re wanking flies with boxing gloves, here, don’t you think?
