This has cost enthusiasts millions of pounds to date in tank repairs, or replacement tanks. The situation's bad enough now and will only get worse as the percentage of ethanol increases (5% at present, due to increase to 10% soon?), but there is little doubt that it will also cost lives. A pal who flies a microlight has had a problem with a leaking fibreglass tank - imagine a carb clogging at a few thousand feet, or a petrol fire...... in his aircraft the tank is an integral part of the monocoque construction, so solving the issue may involve virtually scrapping the airframe! Another pal of mine was in the outside lane of the motorway when his GS1150 virtually stopped without warning as both carbs clogged. He only survived because traffic was very light and he hadn't had a Mondeo up his chuff! Once home, the inside of the tank looked like it had been filled with kelp, long fronds of tank liner waving about and bits breaking off, clogging the whole fuel system. Tank liner solutions widely sold to deal with the problem are showing very mixed - almost pot-luck results How can responsibility for this debacle be avoided by the EU? What do you think the chances of a class action vs EU would be, or is a lifetime too short to spend it raging against the machine?
As Cpl Jones would say, Don't panic! Don't panic! Adding a few percent Ethanol or Methanol to petrol is a pretty effective and practical way of stretching a bit further the oil drilled out of the ground. It is increasingly common practice in Brazil, USA, and most of the countries in the world including the whole of Europe, and will soon become universal. On the whole it is an obviously good thing which most people are in favour of. I can't imagine why you are raving about the EU. Most fuel tanks, pipes, fuel injection systems and carburettors can cope pretty well with 5%. All vehicles in current production should have no problems. Some old vehicles, such as those with glass fibre petrol tanks, require modifications which are readily available. This is a great deal cheaper and simpler to deal with than the conversion from leaded to unleaded petrol ever was. So let's deal with it.
Sorry pete, but don't agree, who is going to pay the cost of modifications? the amount of ethanol is only going to go up, as it has in the states, and caused lots of problems with car and bike fuel tanks. Ducati had to do a replacement of multistrada tanks after a class action, due to the nylon material swelling, other makes and models have also had problems. In europe there will be little or no chance of owners getting any redress for damage caused by ethanol, so a great many bikes may become uneconomical to repair.
Hmm, not long back from Brazil, and my colleagues there say they run anything from 5% to 100% for 30 years with no major adverse effects. But maybe they learned their lessons early and have adapted with lower vehicle volumes to consider, and now with high volumes it is second nature. didn't realise that ethanol would be so detrimental to vehicles, especially at such low percentages. But yes, the only way is up with percentages, as with bio-derv.
Tank swelling & distortion associated with increased ethanol content in petrol has become such an issue in the US that Ducati North America replaced scores of tanks FOC (some owners are on their 3rd tank). On the Ducati.ms site there are threads regarding sourcing of replacement aluminium tanks for the various model ranges from Italy & India. Here's a thread regarding provision of aluminium tanks for Sport Classics: Taking deposits for Aluminum Fuel Tanks! - Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum
Ducati made a mistake with the specification of the plastic for the tanks, and have had to meet the resulting warranty claims. But tank swelling and distortion is not dangerous, and does not lead to bikes cutting out without warning or having to be scrapped (see post 1). That problem does not alter the fact that manufacturers of new vehicles must, can and (generally) do make them to suit ethanol fuels. When leaded petrol was discontinued, lots of old vehicles had to have their valve seats & valves replaced which was expensive, inconvenient, and meant stripping the engine. It is true that the salt content in ethanol/methanol may lead to increased corrosion of petrol pipes etc in old vehicles. My point was that replacing those sort of parts is pretty easy in comparison with replacing valve seats. Anyhow, ethanol is here to stay and we simply have to deal with it. Whining about how terrible it all is doesn't help much.
Whining help me. I whined so much I forgot all about the problem! Since when is there an "h" in "wine"? Wy wasn't I told?
No whining here, but don't mind a decent wine. The main issue with Sport Classic tanks in North America was that the distortion caused many of them to wobble around as they no longer fitted snugly into the locating cups. Some web sites report that Super Unleaded will retain a maximum ethanol content of 5%, so there is a choice of buying a specific fuel (if the web reports are accurate) or buying an aluminium tank - if the use of fuel with a higher ethanol content becomes an issue. Whatever, I still plan to ride my bike.
Pete1950 said "But tank swelling and distortion is not dangerous, and does not lead to bikes cutting out without warning or having to be scrapped (see post 1)." View attachment 7973 View attachment 7971 View attachment 7976 View attachment 7977 First two photos are of a tank bought brand new by a friend of mine for a CCM 4 months ago. The second 2 photos are of what we managed to get out of the BMW R1100GS mentioned in the OP. Tank swelling and distortion will lead to problems with seals and sealing, that will result in tanks leaking and that, I think you'll agree, is dangerous. Nobody had mentioned swelling and distortion leading to bikes cutting out. Nobody mentioned bikes having to be scrapped. Perhaps you should read post 1 properly. Do you disagree that the insides of tanks being affected to the extent shown above is likely to lead to bikes cutting out?
May I invite you to look at my posts again, more carefully. My response to the post about problems with Ducati tanks was about the swelling and distorting which has been widely reported in USA. I said that swelling and distortion of Ducati tanks as reported does not lead to bikes cutting out, nor to bikes being scrapped. That would appear to be completely right, and not to need correction. Some posts mentioned vehicles having to be “virtually scrapped”, but I do not think this applies to Ducatis. Some posts mentioned severe problems with components in non-Ducati tanks, but again I am not aware this has been found in Ducatis – perhaps further news will come along. I have pointed out that the demise of unleaded fuel did indeed have expensive or catastrophic consequences, and did lead to some engines & vehicles being scrapped. This contrasts with the current much less serious issues with Ethanol etc. A blocked or ineffective fuel filter, pump, tap, pipe, carb, or injector might cause an engine to cut out, and that could happen to any vehicle at any time. So could running out of fuel, or getting water or dirt in the fuel. These are all problems to avoid, as I am sure everyone would agree. It is a practical matter though, and panicking about the mere possibility is not much of a help. Incidentally, I cannot open the attachments – but never mind, they would probably add little to the discussion.
I accepted your invitation to read your posts again carefully. Thank you. I fear that despite your assertion that you are above correction, sadly, you're wrong. You may have made your comments in relation to Ducatis but I quote again for the hard of understanding "But tank swelling and distortion is not dangerous, and does not lead to bikes cutting out without warning or having to be scrapped (see post 1)" a little clue for you, referencing post 1. . where no mention had been made of tank swelling, distortion, or bikes being scrapped. Thank you also for the useful list of things that may lead to blocked fuel systems and the reassuring note that panicking about it is not of much help - all very helpful. Good attempt at at misdirection, you mention that some posts (i.e. more than one) mentioned vehicles "virtually scrapped" - following your invitation to read carefully once again, it seems you have invented the quote to suit your argument, or can you point out where that appears? Picasa Web Albums - BorgoPanigale - Ethanol in pe...# Ignoring your point that the images would, in your view, add little to the discussion, perhaps others might wish to see them, after all, it ain't all about you.
Calm down, dear. Ethanol/methanol in petrol is quite a wide and interesting topic, so thanks for raising it. I have made some points I wanted to make in my previous posts on this thread, and stand by them so far. Perhaps I may choose to make some more points later. If you want to contradict anything I write, feel free to go right ahead and justify your point (whatever it is). Post whatever pics you like. I am not interested in a quarrel about what he/you/I said, or meant; all the posts are there for anyone to read.
Peter, Peter, Peter, after contradicting everyone else on this thread and attempting to belittle views counter to yours as, ‘panic’, 'raving' and 'whining', (actual quotes, not inventions) your own position appears to be encapsulated by the term, "I'm alright,Jack" because you think you ride something that is manufactured post ethanol. Yet, I'd wager you keep a close eye on the fuel components on your old Pantahs, rather than simply trust them and discover in a surprise fireball that you're not as alright as you thought, 'Jack'. You'll also check them closely each time you consider using them because of what you know about ethanol and its effects – so why try and dissuade others from doing the same and why denigrate anyone sounding an alarm about the issue? Is it because you want to look like an authority on the subject? A Google search on the subject reveals that almost a year ago someone calling themselves Pete1950 appeared on Kevin Ash's forum tugging at his forelock sycophantically inviting 'Kevin' to consider an article the subject of 'Ethanol in petrol' saying, "This has led to problems with plastic fuel tanks weakening, leaking, blistering and losing shape..................; The possible harms caused by putting methanol/ethanol into tanks and engines not designed for them is, of course, not mentioned. Hazarding a guess, this problem may soon become endemic in UK. It would seem that neither fuel suppliers nor bike manufacturers could have bothered to test for this factor when setting the specs for the fuel, or for the grades of plastic used in fuel tanks.” http://www.ashonbikes.com/forum/ethanol-petrol Obviously this wasn't you..... because having expressed the same sort of concerns yourself, you wouldn't now want to belittle fellow forum members by accusing them of panicking, whining, or raving, to rubbish their concerns here, would you? Why, that would just be mean spirited and hypocritical, wouldn't it?
wrong wrong wrong and wrong on so many different levels no we should not have to put up with additional EU regulations - why don't we simply have a referendum on continued EU membership resources squandered on making ethanol could be used for feeding some of the staving millions rolling over and appeasing people is never a win win situation
Ha-Ha,very funny. This is a wind-up, obviously. Post a lot of provocative trolling nonsense, in the hope of an entertaining flame war. Nice try, but I’m not interested. If anybody has anything genuine and serious to say about ethanol, etc. by all means say it.
wind up?? I wish it was the ethanol has to come from somewhere, namely from growing crops crops diverted from food production or rain forests cut down to provide land for growing ethanol crops both have an environmental and /or food cost that is conviently ignored in the ethanol is going to save the planet argument like many green arguments they often do not hold water when fully examined
ive got to say that this is a pain in the arse for me, most of my bikes are pre 1980, and this bloody ethenol crap has destroyed many parts on my bikes. tanks, fuel taps, pipes, let alone the staining it causes. bloody eu and these crappy regulations..... i cant recall any fuel every doing this before. god i hate brussels, and all those overpaid idiots.
I read a description of a way to remove the ethanol by using water-ethanol bonds to water, but petrol doesn't so you can construct a rig to allow you to mix some water with the ethanol containing gas, stir it up well, then drain the water/ethanol mix from the bottom of the rig leaving you with pure gasolene. The method is described here: Removing Ethanol from Gasoline - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com Not very useful if you are running a modern fuel injected bike and filling up at a station-but if you buy fuel in a can to put in a classic bike as I do then it does give you the option to process the fuel first. Alternatively find a friendly airfield and buy Avgas-not only ethanol free, but leaded as well-100LL is what you are looking for-it's expensive, but worth it since it also gets over the 'unleaded' problem. John
E10 ethanol will destroy all plastic tank ducati models from 2004 - 2013 so far over 25,000 in USA where E10 has been in use since 1998 it will also damage fuel rubbers on all older models as well as other vehicles.its a nightmare ,
I've discovered my 05 Numpty has a warped fuel pump flange on the tank which hopefully explains the whiff of petrol I've noticed in the garage for some time! Has anyone fixed this problem? my idea is possibly an additional home made Viton gasket or heating the deformed area and pulling it out then sanding flat when cold to form a flat sealing surface?
