Suspension - Great Sources Of Info

Need to rework these links as a lot are dead

 

I subscribed to Dave Moss for $9.99 for one month. I found the 1299 setup video and carried out my own adjustments. I've measured sag on the rear shock using a small cable tie, although Monday I've got a buddy coming to measure sag the recommended way.

I saw a post here about a guy with a panigale, 1199 I think that said he had no static sag on the back. When I attempt to lift the rear, it was solid. So maybe that was what he meant. After following DM's video, I know have about 5mm of movement.
When I ride it, I'll see if I feel the difference.

 

Correct, I should have been more clear, after me and my +1 play with this on Monday, I'll see if it makes a difference.

 

My 2018 V4s had zero static sag from the factory.

 

959 is 5mm standard static. You're a bit back to front above. Standard practice is 5 t
o 10mm static (difference between top out (wheel off ground) and just weight of bike) and 25-35 mm rider (= top out to fully loaded). My 959 runs at about 13mm static at 30mm rider, which is a bit much, but I have Mupo factory shock with a slightly too stiff spring which brings up the static because I sometimes take pillion, so its a compromise.

 

I would speculate that 95% of bikes have never had their suspension adjusted for their rider's weight, riding style and road conditions. By seeking to customize your bike's suspension, you are taking the first step in joining a small group people that seek to maximize the handling of their motorcycle. If by any chance your suspension was completely out of wack, adjusting it properly will seem heavenly. In fact, you may even think you have a different bike.

First step is documenting where you are now. If you're 80~85kg fully kitted, you're in the zone. However, if you're significantly outside this range, the stock springs may not get you there thus you would require a spring swap.

1) Start with fork and shock preload. Turn the fork preload completely to zero and note how many turns. Then re-set it back to where it was. Both forks should be the same. Write down the number of turns.
Next, for the rear preload, note how many thread lines you have below the castle nut on the rear shock. Write it down.

2) Fork compression: Close it completely and count the clicks until it stops. Don't force it. Write it down and return it to where it was.
3) Fork rebound: Close it completely and count the clicks until it stops. Again don't force it. Write it down and return it to where it was.

4) Turn the compression knob below the shock to completely close it. Note the number of clicks or turns. Write it down then return it to where it was.
5) Turn the the rear rebound knob to close it. Note the number of clicks. Write it down then return it to where it was.

Now you're ready to start tweaking. You can always go back to these settings if need be.
Do this and next, you'll need to set the static SAG and more importantly, the Rider SAG based on your weight.
Static SAG on most road bikes should be around 10% of total travel but having a bit more in front is not that critical. Your Rider SAG target is more important and should be about 30% of travel both fore and aft. If you can't get close to 30% here by adjusting preload, you will require changing springs.
You'll need a helper for this one. Wear full gear while you're on the bike and your assistant does the measurements. Plenty of YouTubes on this. Of the 6 adjustments, Rider SAG is the one you can set-and-forget unless of course you alter the carrying load on the bike such as having a pillion and/or luggage.
Front and rear compression & rebound is a journey which you can tweak based on the riding condition of a particular day. Fork and shock travel should be near 75% of maximum. Use a zip tie on your fork as a measuring instrument. Same for the rear shock positioned between the shock and the black bumper which should be stuck at the top but is probable not.
Now get out there and ride. See how much suspension travel you're consuming and adjust accordingly.
As previously stated, strive for about 3/4 of the fork travel measured to the bottom-out mark above the fork casting and that's while riding on smooth roads without pushing it. If riding more aggressively or on rougher roads, the zip-tie can drop another half inch. In an emergency stop, the zip-tie should drops to just above the bottom-out mark without bottoming-out.

 

I have recently changed springs based on the Racetech calculator but feel they are still a bit stiff, do these numbers say the same?
Rider sag is currently 34%, static sag is 24%
If I understand correctly I could reduce the static sag by adding more preload but this would lower rider sag too much, correct?

 

I’d focus on the total sag ie what it is with you sitting on the bike in all your gear, that’s the important one. I believe this is what you’re referring to as Rider Sag above.

I’ve never really bothered with static sag measurements as the bike isn’t going to move anywhere without the rider (and pillion/luggage) so, to my mind, it’s a somewhat academic measurement.

 

That is correct. Your Rider SAG is fine. If you increase the preload it will affect both.
Having a level bike is what you should strive for where Rider SAG fore and aft are equal.
However, this could be a geometry adjustment as well. Having a bit more SAG up front can make the bike turn in faster.

 

Yes. Rider SAG and Total SAG (new one for me) but all the same.
Static SAG and Free SAG are also interchangeable.
You'll also come across Race SAG but this one requires attention as it's definition varies depending on the author.

 

I do believe this is where confusion arises, different people using the same words for different things. I’ve seen some articles where Rider Sag is how much further it sags with the rider on over and above the static sag so in @M nine ’s post #12 above some might construe his bike sags 24% of its total suspension movement just under its own weight and a further 34% when he sits on it. Clearly that would be a ludicrous 58% in total, but it’s always wise to make sure we all understand what the other means when talking sag.

 

My understanding was always start with static sag, set that first.
Then set the rider sag but if the rider sag takes the static sag out of its optimum it means you need different springs.

If the static sag is fully topped out once you have set the rider sag, its likely the bike will top out under some riding conditions. And if the static sag is too much once the rider sag is set then the suspension may bottom out on larger bumps.

Preload, unless you are racing, is set to ensure the suspension is working within the best possible parameters so it neither tops out of bottoms out.

 

I suppose the order of operation doesn't matter. You can set the Static SAG first but at the end of the day you're going to have to get your Rider SAG right. The 10/30 target is difficult to achieve especially on a long travel front suspension. For example as shown below, You'll have to accept a larger Static SAG to reach a Rider SAG of approx 30% . Otherwise your front suspension will be way too harsh.

 

I'm just cutting and pasting from another placee...so the info is in one thread

This is for a 900ss, but you can still use the figures as a guide.

OEM Showa Suspension Setup

I. Set Preload (a/k/a ride height or sag) before adjusting compression and rebound damping (900SS Showa's: 14 revolutions preload adjustment on forks and ring preload adjustment on rear shock).

A. Static/Free Sag:

1. Lift motorbike off the ground, including F and R wheels, so that the suspension is topped out (i.e.: the bike's weight is not compressing the suspension at all; cannot use stands to do this).

2. With motorbike/wheels lifted, for F wheel, measure distance of suspension travel with zip-tie on fork leg; and for R wheel, measure distance from a point on bike to rear axle that is perpendicular to ground.

3. Repeat measurements but now with bike on ground loading suspension.

4. Difference between suspension topped out and bike on ground and loading suspension is free sag:

a. Front suspension: 20 -- 30mm free sag.

b. Rear suspension: 5 -- 10mm free sag.

5. If free sag is not within above range, may need to change spring rates.

B. Rider Sag:

1. Repeat free sag measurements above but this time with rider/gear on bike and with rider (and weight distribution) in normal riding position.

2. Difference between suspension topped out and with rider/gear on bike and loading suspension is static/rider sag (should use about 1/3 of the total suspension available):

a. Front suspension: for 120mm of total travel, there should be approximately 30mm (race) -- 40mm (street) rider sag.

b. Rear suspension: for 65mm of total travel, there should be approximately 15mm (race) -- 21mm (street) rider sag.

C. Adjust preload so that static/rider sag is within proper range.

1. Not enough (symptoms): spring not properly loaded; inefficient.

2. Too much (symptoms): harsh ride; poor traction.


II. Adjust forks (900SS Showa: 14 click adjustment for compression and rebound).

A. Set preload properly (see above).


B. Front rebound damping is located at top of fork; spec is 4 clicks out (counterclockwise) from max (fully screwed in clockwise).

1. Not enough (symptoms): pogo effect during transitions; bike rises too much when flicked; loose and imprecise bike/front; understeers & bike/front turns wide (solution: 2 clicks in).

2. Too much (symptoms): suspension is packing down; bike/front chatters over ripples; front doesn’t ride down backside of bump; harsh ride over bumps; oversteers & bike/front wants to tuck-in in corners; poor front tire grip; tank slap under acceleration (solution: 2 clicks out).

C. Front compression damping is located at bottom of fork; spec is 6 clicks out (counterclockwise) from max (fully screwed in clockwise).

1. Not enough (symptoms): fork bottoms out; front dives excessively during braking; front feels vague; bike wallows in transitions (solution: 2 clicks in).

2. Too much (symptoms): chatter at handlebars even when not braking; fork jumps off crest of bump instead of riding down it; harsh ride over bumps; front rides high in corners; understeers & bike/front turns wide (solution: 2 clicks out).


III. Adjust shock (900SS Showa: screw adjustment for compression and rebound).

A. Set preload properly (see above).

B. Rear rebound damping is located at bottom of shock; spec is 1 full turn out (counterclockwise) from max (fully screwed in clockwise).

1. Not enough (symptoms): pogo effect during transitions; bike rises too much when flicked; loose and imprecise bike/rear; bike wallows/weaves over bumps; decreased traction (solution: screw in 2 turns).

2. Too much (symptoms): suspension is packing down; bike/rear chatters over ripples; harsh ride over bumps; slow steering; understeers & bike turns wide (solution: screw out 2 turns).


C. Rear compression damping is located at top of shock; spec is 1 full turn out (counterclockwise) from max (fully screwed in clockwise).

1. Not enough (symptoms): shock bottoms out; too much rear squat during acceleration causing front to lose grip/lighten; rear bumps sideways during acceleration out of corners; bike wallows in transitions; understeers & bike turns wide (solution: screw in 2 turns).

2. Too much (symptoms): lack of rear squat during acceleration; harsh ride over bumps, which increases with speed; rear kicks out/skips over medium/large bumps (solution: screw out 2 turns).

IV. To quicken steering, move front forks up in the triple claims and/or increase the rear shock's length (if available).

V. Remember to record all adjustments and to make changes to suspension (rebound and compression as well as forks and shock) one at a time.