in my relentless quest for the correct body position, i struggle to comprehend how a bike that is more upright still can turn? the adagio for good positioning is that it helps keep the bike more upright with all the bonus : more grip, more traction, later braking, less risk etc etc... all very logical ... but the question remains : if it s lean that makes a bike turn, how can having less lean still make the bike turn the same way? Or is it not lean that makes the bike turn? if not , then what does make it do so?
Watch the vid, its cheesy but some good stuff, it explains how you don't lean a bike, you turn it And if you look at the pros guys, the bike isn't upright...I believe its all to do with weight distribution and grip affect
What if you just can't stand americans. Kope it's not understandable,but art you like at the same time.It's a feeling that does'nt make sense till you speak and ride with someone who feels the same.It's art with feeling because it's so viscural ?
From my understanding of it it's not the really the lean that causes the bike to turn, more the turn causes the bike to lean, the weight distribution on the bike determines how far the bike needs to lean in order to turn at a given speed, therefore the more weight you can get to the inside of the turn the quicker you can go with the bike at a given angle. That's my understanding of it from what I have learnt and discovered, but it should be noted I am not particularly experienced. So if I'm talking rubbish someone please correct me before I end up parked in a field somewhere...
As a new biker who is not riding that intuitively and still on a steep learning curve, I'm finding that leaning on a sports bike doesn't actually seem to do very much, at speed, it's the counter-steering that makes the bike go where I want it to, I'm sure for more experienced riders this is completely second nature, its taken me easily 6 months to start doing it without really thinking and begin to make faster, smoother progress.
Its one I've never really got to the bottom of either. My understanding is similar to Matt's. I also believe its gyroscpoic precession that initiates the turn, by countersteering then the bike leans as a consequence of that. Also seen that theory totally rubbished by some on other forums too So in the end its all Voodoo, magic and an understanding of the dark arts that's required John So what did I say wrong then Jerry?
Tbh I dont care. All I know is if I smash the inside bar I can turn later, and with more speed, than if I dont.
Countersteering causes lean (by gyroscopic precession), lean causes turn (by cone effect). The further the lean, the smaller the circumference of the the tyres in contact with the ground, the tighter the arc of the turn. Hanging off: Let's say the corner is 70 degrees and you can take it, without hanging off and staying perfectly upright on the bike, at a max. speed of 60mph. Let's say that's where the pegs scrape and to lean more would have you off the bike. If you hang off the bike, you can take the same corner at the same speed but the bike will be much more upright, giving you more traction. I think the answer you're looking for, though, is that both methods will get you around the same corner because the limit of the bike/corner interface (i.e. grounding out to the point of failure) hasn't been reached in either case. It's just that hanging off allows you to approach that limit more safely because if your body position is correct your knee will hit the floor way before the bike does.
this is interesting "The further the lean, the smaller the circumference of the the tyres in contact with the ground, the tighter the arc of the turn" ...ok then : "If you hang off the bike, you can take the same corner at the same speed but the bike will be much more upright, giving you more traction."... this is the mistery : if it is lean that turns the bike, and that het amount of lean determines the tightness of the turn, how come that a more upright ( less lean ) bike still makes the same turn? "Countersteering causes lean (by gyroscopic precession)".... so you countersteer to create te lean that causes the bike to turn... being more upright , you countersteer less... could it be that whilst being more upright you actually have to steer ( not countersteer ) the bike to make the turn with at the same 'curve'? thanks guys..
If you want to turn left quickly, push the left clip-on to the right and the bike will drop to the left (or vice versa).......the lean is induced by the bike dropping in, (unless you want to crash.) If you want it turn even quicker, reduce the wheelbase a bit....raise the back or bring the forks up through the yoke more.
What i want to achieve is to get straighter through the turn and not run wide... eventually that will be at higher speed as being more upright will allow for that.. but then the bike will just want to run wide.. how do i keep it from doing that and still follow the bend i intended...
It's just as I understand all the theories that are out there. You contersteer, precession causes the bike to lean. As I recall gyroscopic precession means any revolving body will move at 90 degrees to the applied force (its more complex than that but doing this stuff at college did my head in so no chance now). That makes the bike tilt in the turn. The more you push the more she leans so the tighter the turn will be as the circumference of the wheel reduces as the bike leans more. But if you lean further than the bike and hang off then you move the center of gravity lower and towards the inside of the curve. As the COG is now more favorable less lean is required, you are about 1/3 of the total mass, more or less. You can test the opposite by trying to stay upright as the bike tilts, you will notice that you need to bank the bike more. You need to countersteer everything even a bicycle when moving at speed, leaning has an effect but its pretty small. When bikes had skinny tyres leaning on its own seemed to do the job but that was probably because leaning puts more pressure on the bar you are leaning into so you countersteer instinctively. Twist of the wrist explains it very well, if you can stand the commentary. When I first moved to a "modern" (I'm talking 90's here) bike with larger tyres it took me a long time to understand how to control it, I just could not get the bugger to turn effectively. That's the physics of it I'm rubbish at riding but what I find works is getting my arse off into the turn then when I really want to bank into the turn I move my head into the turn, this then forces my whole body off the bike and I'm just unaware of the act of countersteering, but I do know I'm doing it. When I've totally cocked it up more lean and more push has saved me in the past. The other thing that is psychological but in my case anyway has a big effect is to look to where you want to place the bike. Looking through the turn at the exit helps me anyway to place the bike correctly, you go where you look. Sounds daft but its not that hard and it just takes a wee bit of practice and concentration. After you've done it a few hundred times you stop thinking about it as a conscious act and it all clicks. The only time you steer (as opposed to countersteer) is at very low speeds when the wheel doesn't act like a gyroscope (or gyroscopic forces are so weak that they can be neglected). Of course I could well be talking oot ma arse. But that's the way I understand it and so far the consenus seems to be pretty much in agreement John
Kope, its in the throttle as much as anything, reducing front end weight bias means you can get back online. Try a d pick the throttle up before the apex a little and see what happens, not a lot just gentle roll on. The vid has a bot, voiced over by Jools from motogp, and explains quite well what happens to the front and how loading it has the affect of turning the steering into the corner, ie running you wide
Because the bigger turn radius of the more upright bike would still allow you to make the turn anyway. It just does it while giving you more margin for error. Think of countersteering as the method to 'set' the lean angle. Once the angle of lean has been 'set', an equilibrium occurs and the bike steers itself around the arc that has been set because of cone effect (assuming no further input from the rider via the handlebars, throttle, geometry changes or brakes). Imagine a cone lying on its side. Push the large end and it has to follow a circle with a radius equal to the length of the cone. Each bike tyre is essentially two cones, base to base and cut off to the width of the tyre. When the bike is more upright, it follows a slightly wider arc after having its lean angle 'set' than when leaned over further - but as long as that wider arc still allows you to get round the bend, that's what counts. If you had a bike that could be set at a certain speed (ie. it automatically kept the same speed no matter else was going on, such as loss of speed due to friction, geometry changes, etc.), you could use countersteering to set the lean angle, take your hands off the bars and it would carry on in a circle around the prescribed arc until it ran out of fuel (assuming you had a big enough area to do it in). To get it to change that arc would require more countersteering to make it lean less or more, thus widening or reducing the arc. To keep it from running wide, you just have to set slightly more lean - either in the first instance or by gently adding some more until you know you're going to make it (by pushing on the inside bar).
Its all about weight distribution, if you lean a bike you move your centre of gravity towards the centre of the corner. You can achieve the same effect by hanging off the bike without having to lean the bike anywhere near as much. You can also adjust the line by moving your weight forwards and backwards. The key with hanging off is to move your upper body more than your lower body, there is much more mass higher up which provides a better effect. Look at the gp and wsb boys, they ride with one bum cheek still on the seat (just) but their heads are down by the clipon... I have a superb contact for 1-2-1 training if you are interested? Lee runs training schools for trackday riders and racers and also runs schools for the Dubai Ducati owners club too.
