Its ironic. Salmond has tried to invoke anti-English grievance to propel his bandwagon and yet whatever the outcome of the vote he himself will probably have sown more division and bitterness among his own people than all the English, the Tories and Margaret Thatcher ever did put together.
I'm still thinking that a federal set-up could be a good idea, but in this scenario, you'd have some "cantons" in England, not just one. It makes sense. People in the north-east should also have more autonomy. What's London doing for them? Lancs and Yorks already consider themselves to be autonomous states. Would the West Country or East Anglia also be happy to have a bit more autonomy? It might sound all very bizarre to you, but when you live in a small federal country, it makes perfect sense. Typically, in the UK it's all about dualism: Tories or Labour, status quo or independence. No real examination of a third way.
How about being the 54th state of America? Could be something in that: no need for Europe, no need for pound or euro, no need for an army...Ireland next...
I agree entirely with federalism but England must have a national government. A collection of regional mini-governments without a solely English national Parliament effectively means the abolition of the English nation. The EU has already tried to do this by erasing England from the European map. According to the EU, the UK consists of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and 9 other "EU regions". "England" has been completely erased from the EU's nomenclature. That emphatically cannot be tolerated here. Labour would like to replace England with city authorities, purely because it tends to control the cities. That is pure and entirely characteristic leftist electoral gerrymandering but there is a wider fear and suspicion of English identity and English nationalism running through the British political establishment that is illogical, partisan and offensive. I hope the Scottish referendum wakes the English dragon. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Bring on full federalism and tear up the Barnett formula.
It doesn't have to be quite like that. Here in Switzerland you have cantonal governments, but you also have a central Swiss government, just as in the US, you have State governments and also a US federal government. That's how it works. Some things are decided at a central level - foreign policy, monetary policy, defence, trade agreements and whatnot - and other things are decided at cantonal level. Your taxes are about 80% spent at a local level, indeed 40% of mine are spent at my village level. Does Scotland desperately want to decide its own foreign policy, monetary policy and defence? I suspect not really. What it wants is to decide its educational and health policies (which to some extent it already does), roads etc. It really wants more say over the money it raises being spent at home. And that's quite understandable. The independence thing is really chucking out the baby with the bathwater. As for England disappearing, I'm not convinced. Here there are also language areas, so that the French speaking cantons feel a great affinity for each other, compared to the lesser affinity they share with the German-speaking cantons, or the sub-Alpine Italian speaking canton. This would not be dissimilar to how the Welsh, Scots, English and Northern Irish might feel in a Federal UK set-up. So here there is an over-arching sense of Swissness, but also other senses of language, canton and even commune (can't find a good word for a feeling of belonging to your town or village). It all seems to work very well. Remarkably well when you consider that huge amounts of the country can't even understand other bits of it.
gimlet i am sure we agree that there is good and bad on both sides of the in/out campaign but to perpetuate the myth that salmond is trying to promote anti english feelings only serves to expose one of two things A. you believe what you read in the daily propaganda or B, you have ulterior motives. the argyll, and lochaber boarder runs right through my garden and both sides are heavily populated with people from other parts of the uk that have moved here to retire or seek a better way of life, now i don't campaign or have YES stickers on our cars or at my work but i am happy to talk about it should the subject come up and it does almost every day in the last 2years and if i was to tell you the biggest promoters of Independence around here are english born would you believe me?. i was quite shocked to find my self the other day riding through portglasgow, a run down working class area with not a yes flag to be found. (apart for the old gezzer running up and down the duel carragway ). Glid i cant say for sure that salmond or scotland wanted full independence or not as devo max wasn't allowed to be put to the people to decide, i think we can agree that westminster didn't think it would be so close hence the last Minuit promises that wont come because the rest of the u.k wont allow it when it is put to Parliament.
You will be made very welcome Paul. I think English people are braver when it comes to business than us Scots. Most of my English friends here have their own businesses, which is a good thing.
Well, I'm not bothered either way now. I'm a NO person. But I dont think it will make much difference to me either way. I live in London. I have no plans to move back North. Unless the SNP also think the weather will get better along with all the other fairy tales they believe in.
I have no ulterior motive Fin and I don't read the popular press. The only daily paper I read is the Telegraph which is as grovellingly pro-unionist as David Cameron. In fact the only reason I keep reading it is because its writers can spell and construct a grammatical sentence: I find less and less in it I agree with. I am an English nationalist I suppose, but of the democratic variety, not the alarming kind you're not doubt thinking of. I'm a federalist and have been for years. It is abundantly clear that there is an ingrained sense of grievance or at least mistrust running between English and Scottish society. Most of it is political, not racial, some of it is imagined, a lot of it is inherited folklore. I believe much of this historical fog would be cleared away if the UK was replaced by a federal alliance of strictly sovereign nations co-operating to their mutual advantage on areas of policy where there is common interest. We would be happier, more harmonious neighbours. But Alex Salmond's vision, insofar as he has one will push our relations in the opposite direction. He has readily stoked anti-Westminster resentment to advance his cause with irresponsible disregard for any damage done to Anglo/Scottish relations; and Westminster politicians have no vision at all, especially Cameron who will be as responsible as Salmond if the UK is led into a quagmire by his refusal to take the referendum seriously and act as a proper statesman by planning in advance for Sottish secession. Westminster politicians (except John Redwood whose is the only intelligent voice I've heard on the subject) don't seem to grasp what federalism means, which is why I get exasperated when they talk of federalism for everyone except England which they seem intent on breaking up as if they fear unleashing some terrible national extremism - in England?? - or more likely they fear dismantling the established political order out of which they have done very well indeed. The key word is sovereign, which means England must have its own Parliament in which only English MPs sit and which discusses only English affairs. It almost certainly means leaving the EU as well, since that organisation will never tolerate member states forming alliances without their involvement or sanction. I understand Glid's Swiss example but Switzerland is one nation, it is not in permanent alliance with its neighbours and it is not even in the EU. Cantons make sense for that country but I'm not sure England needs so many extra layers of bureaucracy. We already have county councils, town council and city authorities. It is a minuscule country, its governance does not need to be complicated. I do question though, whether London can continue as England's political capital. It is fast becoming a devolved state in its own right and many English people, north and south, feel as alienated from its metropolitan agenda as do the people of Scotland.
Salmond is not anti English, he is anti Westminster. For most people, the Westminster pantomime is a big reason to leave. Its corrupt, ineffective, undemocratic and owned by business. At Holyrood we pay our MSPs a lot less and expenses are handled differently. We have a good proportional representation system, so everyone's vote counts. We have a broader range of parties and ideas, unlike Westminster where you can't tell them apart. All the time I lived in England I said England needed to re assert itself, celebrate being English, get your flag back from the nutters. Its a great country, much to be proud of!
My understanding is that the Lisbon Treaty was signed which basically made Parliament redundant. Not sure what the implications of the Treaty would mean for Scotland.
you make a good argument gimlet. but please stop promoting anti English or Scottish it doesn't help. on this i am sure we can stand together.
If the Scots vote YES and they gain Independance, why should they think they would have access to the National Health Service? If they want to be Independant, they should be told to p*ss off and form their own Health Service, not just 'manage' the NHS.
I have to say I'm disappointed in the language Alex Salmond has resorted to using over the last couple of weeks. I honestly think he's letting himself down and the people he represents. The recent comments from Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond have been quite different in tone. Sure enough I think the No campaign has been crass at times however Salmond's language in response I think is rather unbecoming for someone in his position and more significantly, the language he's resorted to is terribly divisive. One thing I find desperate is that in the last couple of days he's readily resorted to referencing the anonymous cabinet minister's quote given to The Guardian as being the reason he knows there will be a currency union. There's lots more to the debate than the currency however a currency union based on what's printed in the Guardian? Dear oh dear.
Theyd have their own NHS Spiggy. Like they would have an SBC rather than the BBC. Etc. However the NHS debate is interesting as the Scottish Parliament has always had control over their NHS. Sure we set their budget, but we set ours too. Cuts were made everywhere but only Salmond failed to realise there was a bloody recession and we had to balance our books again. But fuckwit salmond and the fat helmet headed bint ignore that while they tempt the electorate with sweeties like some Jacobean pied pipers. Anyway, we all get the gov we deserve and Scotland will get theirs too. I guarantee no-one in Scotland will love theirs after all the dust is settled. No-one ever does. Especially when the SNP reveal themselves to be The Scottish Conservative they are. The debate has become acrimonious recently, which is why I avoid the debate on TV like the plague now. What ever happens, happens. I'm just prepared to wait and see. The rhetoric is done and dusted. As long as I can still pop home now and again and then fuck off back south where the weather is better. That suits me fine. After all when all is said and done, its the weather that drives me down here. Not the politics.
