Ouch my head hurts . Only an italian factory would get in this mess ! Or not !i bet it goes on all the time only its not Sherlock who gets his teeth into the investigation . Keep going
Here's my recent e-mail chain to and from Ducati - sorry but reads from bottom to top in time line to make sense! Hi Theresa, OK, thanks for trying. Time for me to come clean and tell my real reasoning for the question! Maybe you or a colleague has checked in to my previous contact last year? I actually do own one of your first five hand built prototype Ducati 999 bikes which I understand would not normally be released to the public with them being pre homologation bikes. I work with Jaguar Landrover on new vehicle development and have confirmed every plastic part on my 999 is manufactured on silicon tooling: air tubes, air-box, engine covers etc. The frame is hand welded prototype with the original casting inserts. The sub-frame is prototype as well as the front fork lower castings. The yokes are also prototype with the pinch bolt being from the opposite side of the production bikes. The petrol tank is hand welded and a subtly different shape to the production models and carries a round 998 style filler cap as shown in some of the earlier design sketches I have copies of. The engine carries no number and I believe it to be a 998 engine - I haven't yet checked the casting dates to help confirm is year of manufacture to further tie in with the dating notes I have. A full strip down will take place to quantify everything eventually. So far I have determined the bike was produced in 2001 and certainly on test very early in 2002 if not before. The bike carries test notes on the coolant tank with dates and levels marked by you R&D department. The exhaust is pre production too with no heat shield mountings evident. It carries ST4S wheels and 998 brakes due to the 999 parts being unavailable at the time. With this in mind could you please tell me the legalities and of any safety issues regarding the use of this bike on the road or track? I would be interesting to know if any of the other 4 prototype bikes still exist. I look forward to your response and thank you for your continued assistance. Regards, Stu On Friday, 5 September 2014, 12:18, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Mr. Sonely, we very much appreciate your enthusiasm towards Ducati. However, we regret to inform you that we are unable to accommodate your request. We remain at your disposal. Kind Regards, Theresa Customer Service Ducati Motor Holding Spa Borgo Panigale – Italy Ducati - Bikes, Equipment, Accessories, Racing, Company, Dealer - Official Site Ducati Hi Theresa, That is unfortunate that this information isn't available for my project regarding the VIN's Could I at least ask one more question which I feel you should be able to answer without giving any confidential information away! I know from the Alan Cathcart's Book on the launch of the 999 that 5 hand built prototypes were made prior to the pre production prototypes I mentioned. I have enough understanding of the pre production prototype VINs. Can you please tell me at least - how many digits the 5 hand built prototypes had, without disclosing any numbers or sequences of numbers? I would much appreciate this information so I can complete my history. I have attached a picture of part of my 'Ducati 999' room to show my request is due to a genuine interest in your products! I will collate my Ducat VIN numbers as you requested - I currently have a 999R, a 999R Fila and a 998 in my growing collection. On Wednesday, 3 September 2014, 14:40, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Mr. Sonely, I tried to reach you by phone several times, unfortunately with no success. We would like to inform you that the only information we can provide you with is that we produced 18.137 units of the 999 for the whole world between 2002 and 2006. Unfortunately we cannot provide our customers with information about the prototypes and the composition of the VINs. I also would like to inform you that according to our records, your name is not listed as the current owner of a Ducati motorcycle. This likely means that you didn’t communicate the transfer of ownership directly to Ducati. We kindly invite you to provide us with a copy of the registration documents of your bikes as an attachment. As soon as we have your information, we will be able to update our Ducati Database in order to reflect your current ownership. We await your kind response and your documents. Kind Regards, Theresa Customer Service Ducati Motor Holding Spa Borgo Panigale – Italy Ducati - Bikes, Equipment, Accessories, Racing, Company, Dealer - Official Site Ducati > Dear Mr.Sonley, > > Thanks for contacting us. > > With respect of your request, I would inform you that your e-mail has been forwarded to the proper department. > I’ll contact you back for a feedback on it as soon as possible. > > I remain at your disposal. > > Kind regards, > Sofia > Sent: 23/07/2014 22.37.15 > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Owned Bikes: > Brand: DUCATI Model: 999 R FILA Purchase Year: 2004 > Brand: DUCATI Model: 999 R Purchase Year: 2004 > Brand: DUCATI Model: 998 Purchase Year: 2003 > Severity: Information > Area: Historical models > Message: As you can see from my bikes I am a fan of Ducati! I > have recently built an extension on my house to keep my two 999R's > inside - a special Ducati Room using 999 Headlights as wall lights. > I am trying to add a complete history of the 999 to the room with > various displays. I have found a lot of information mainly from the > book 999 Birth of a Legend by Alan Cathcart. Great insight into the > bike! MY QUESTION: this is around early model frame numbers pre > launch - I understand the pre production prototypes were numbered > as the following example: ZDM01010106 i.e. 11 Digit frame numbers. > How many of these were produced? Also the earlier hand built > prototypes ( I understand the first had a round 998 filler cap > fitted to the petrol tank? is this so?, a friend once saw it on a > visit to the Ducati factory. How many of these earlier hand built, > non production prototypes were made and what were the frame > numbers? I have been told they were 5 or no more than 6 digit frame > numbers? This would be so helpful to complete my missing > information on these fabulous bikes history! I wonder if you could > check or ask someone in R&D for me. Hope you can help as I have > no one else to ask! Kind regards, Stu
nice story. i really do dislike you even more now! The 0101 number would tally with the Reparto Corse building the bike as it was a numbering convention they used , and wouldn't be unfeasible for a prototype using an old RC engine that might have been kicking around. You'd be better finding out at what stage of development the prototype was- this will help you with understanding what parts are on the bike even if the part numbers have been ground or rubbed off. If its an experimental proto they are a dogs breakfast of what happens to be lying around at the time and whats being tested. You may find that if it was a brake test proto then other than the new models frame there wouldn't be anything exotic that on there - take the perforated heat shield for instance, nothing more than a bit of old tin lying around until styling comes up with something visually acceptable. Marketing prototypes would be given to press or for photo shoots , but the production prototypes are the closes to build intent and are the last things to be built to prove the assembly process. Also you may find ducat's reticence actually down to the fact that if it was a truly early feasibility prototype then it wouldn't have a frame or engine number per se, it would have just had a name - its nothing more than a mule to throw stuff onto to see if it works or what it takes for it to work, where you need to put fastenings etc. Don't be at all surprised if there s absolutely no traceability on the parts on it, they might have just shoved 10 euro in Massimo's hand to nip round the corner to buy a rubber fuel line that might not have been production diameter for instance. The fact this one form so early on has survived in one piece is remarkable enough, I would imagine of the 18 produced most of them were rebuilds of the previous ones as the programme started to take shape rather than 18 separate bikes per se, it common with small volume manufacturer prototyping. You guys at JLR almost release prototypes at near PP stage from what I've seen, and you have quite established processes which admittedly now that VAG group are involved might get pushed onto them (I hope not). Also you have to remember that for a company like Ducati, the only way that bikes like this would have got out into the wild was out the back door or out of a skip, failing that the person who promised to never sell it or mention it went back on their word. But you know how it goes. Also in your presentation slides it mentions about the onward sale of these vehicles, but I'd put money on them being sold on the basis they were non runners for display only.
Hi Sev - not sure you have read the full story - or I may have missed some info considering your response. See the e-mails for the pre-production prototype numbers (11 digits using 0101). The mules came first, using 998 frames. Then 5 hand build prototypes (mine is one of these) - then the pre production prototypes using first off tool parts which are the 18 you are referring. The earlier posts show how it came out of the factory via Ducati Corse / Sandisk in 2006 under it's current guise. No part numbers are evident as all the plastics are cold cast from Silicon Tooling.
sure, but they wouldn't be part numbered would they as they probably at the time had a different part numbering structure. In the case of these prototypes until the feasibility was proven then they probably wouldn't have a part number. The 010101 number sequences were used by the Reparto Corse who (and I might be mistaken) had the zero and one number sequences reserved for their use, thus differentiating then from the standard production part numbering system. But the long and short of it is that Ducati wouldn't entertain supporting you as the history of these bikes is probably better gleaned from trying to find someone who was around when they built it as I bet most of the detail was on the back of a fag packet.
Thought you meant part numbers on parts - think you mean VIN numbers? They would have been numbered going on test, besides Ducati have refused to give me the VIN's. Would they not have simply said they didn't have them? Also thought you loved me, sometimes I can be soooo wrong
Just to re cap - my frame number from the analysis appears to be ZDM01. I presume the first 5 were sequential to ZDM05. The Pre production prototypes were sequential from ZDM01010101 - 11 Digits. I have proof of this from Ducati to Bonham's in an e-mail.
I'm really no authority on that sort of stuff as I've yet to be privileged enough to rub shoulders or have the means or luck to come across toys like that. a manufacturer can be funny about what it hands out especially with stuff like that, because then I suppose it has to authenticate or verify the existence of the vehicle - which in the eyes of some makes it a model variant in its own right rather than a prototype, which at the end of its life wasn't ever supposed to continue existing (as a runner out in the wild). I don't know, I can only speculate, but knowing proto stuff in the past its always a very grey area where they're concerned due to the use they were conceived for especially if they're early mule or X vehicles. I would imagine that if they're being obtuse it would probably boil down to the circumstances of its sale originally and the conditions if any that were imposed on it. There must be someone here who knows people more at the coal face so to speak, or failing that, try and get hold of the books author as I'm sure he'd be very interested to see the bike and also know who to speak to. At the moment you're dealing with the company face of Ducati, you've exhausted that and now just need to speak to the right people, and when you find that person it'll cost you nothing more than a bottle of wine and a good meal. Good luck with it, there will be enough people interested in this bike resurfacing for you to stay in your information dead end for long.
Interesting, but still no official ratification from Ducati. Let us know when you have final confirmation, otherwise it's just a bit of speculative flannel. Good yarn though.
I think they are somewhat rattled... Just had a call from Ducati Customer Service saying they can not give me any information regarding the bike and regarding the use of the bike (being pre homologation) I should check with my local Ducati dealer! I asked how they would know, as all the parts are hand built or prototype on the bike and they would have no knowledge of this, to which they replied: no, I don't think they would! I was asked how I came to have the bike so I explained the chain of how it had came into my possession. I also re emphasised the pre homologation legal / health and safety questions. Then I was asked to send information and pictures and what the VIN number is and she would forward it to the relevant department. So, another step further away from them admitting it I think, then what happened.................. 15 minutes later I received a second call saying her boss had told her to call back and say they would not release any information to me so I needn't bother e-mailing the information!!! I asked why and she said she didn't know and that it was a very unusual situation. I explained again the pre homologation issue and that I felt for H&S and Legal reasons they have a Duty of Care to answer such questions. She then asked me to send the information and photographs. I said I would but I required an answer in writing for my records and not a phone call, to which she agreed. So far not a very professional response I don't think and she was clearly uneasy as to what she had been told to say to me :Bag:
