All perfectly true. Being very keen on symbols like flying the flag, singing the national anthem, and pledging allegiance is a bit of a common thread, though, across most groups in US society. Why is this? I put it down to underlying lack of confidence and trying to overcompensate.
Heh. I always enjoy your slant on the issues of the forum, Pete. Very informed and well thought out, in the main. In this case, though, I have the additional and rare pleasure of reading something from you that is deeply, vastly, emotionally wrong. :biggrin:
About the best quote here pmsl! I married a sergeant and went through with him while he got to Staff Sergeant in the US Airforce .. I was on military bases for a few years inc RAF Fairford and Bentwaters. Had access to runways and engine shops for A10 tank busters. I had these men in my home on a daily basis cooked for them spent most of 3 years daily living the dream.... The bases are little Americas .. Was married while Gulf war was raging caught in alerts and highest Def cons. Had friends out in the Gulf. Had the bloke in the dress uniform Had Harley's.. ( I got a jap bike fast) How was it ... It nearly killed me!!!!! They do not understand sarcasm or Irony . The men I dealt with ... I'm sorry but compared to our forces it's a walk in the park!!! 9-5 mon -fri except when it was Gulf war. Cheap as hell booze and fags .. So health was mega important staple diet Burger King , Dunkin Doughnuts , and Pizza... Although my ex was a fit freak. Our guys .... Join up because they want to. Work hard ... A lot of Americans join up because they have done badly at school or in Hicksvilke or parents have made them go to Military school.. Or don't know what to do! Not all but I will say most guys I dealt with not bright in fact it drove me to despair. I could have fun for hours.. How they hit targets god only knows !! I'm sorry but compared to our boys it was like a carry on film! Getting them to sit through Monty Python priceless I have to say "have a nice day" wears thin as its all very insincere as is being called " Mam". My ex was a total nasty bit of work. Mainly because he was an uneducated redneck . The worst thing was his friend went loopy and suddenly said " God told me motorcycles are evil and I have to sell mine ." So my ex came home with a very expensive bike for a few quid . I went mental as you don't do that to your mate who's clearly gone dolally after coming home That was low. I left him as he was an arse and I hated the American way of life. No sincerity , Don't get me wrong there where some great guys but in the whole it was scary seeing these guys are a superpower!!!! I explained my uncles life in the English Airforce and they where stunned. Having to explain no I'm not related to the Queen ... Yes this is a brick house ! And Toad in the Hole is not bloody Mole in the hole grrrrr. Most miserable 3 years of my life! Oh and apparently they won the war NOT us
Seriously 9am an alarm goes off you have to stop whatever you are doing and stand still then the National Anthem .. You stand and salute . You then wait for the next alarm and go to work . 5 o clock the alarm goes again flag comes down salute National Anthem alarm and then you can go home ( unless you MP ... It was like Trumpton!!!! No wonder our boys get fed up .. It's seriously a doddle compaired to what our boys go through.
Aha! I seem to have hit a nerve. You've turned defensive, but vague - I notice you omit to say what is "wrong" with what I said.
Char - assume you showing the worst of British here in your usual ironic way (wouldn't touch her with El T's :wink: )
Phew - my irony radar is just about still working after 12 hours of mundane office life - now, wine and ibuprofen are calling me
I have worked there, worked in in the far east with them and for them,they have worked for me in India and I work for a sceptic conglomerate company now. There are are good ones, bad ones, skinny ones, fat ones, fit ones, attractive ones and intelligent ones. But they have two things in common - They are not european and thay are naive. Now the onesI have met have have mainly been international travellers, so a fair view cannot be taken of the nature of the beast. It's a country in love with its self, very much how I found China, they believe in their way and their greatness therefore they shout it out. We may believe, but there is no way those oiks from that scruffy estate down the road represent us
Oddly, the nerve that seems to have been hit came to light with your original comments, Pete. I was quite struck by what you said. I had hoped to read more on what prompted your speculation on the reasons for national pride - hence my little stinger - but oh well, OK, I will play. You suggested that expressions of national pride have, in the case of Americans, a basis in insecurity and are a symptom of over-compensation. In my time on the Interwebz and in real life, I have observed that the use of this kind of language - code words such as "lack of confidence" and "over-compensation" - itself stems from a sense of insecurity. It often arises from the psychological phenomenon of projection. Of course, you may suffer no such lack of comfort and confidence in yourself, but the tell-tales were there for me to read, albeit wrongly (?). Anyway, to clarify, what was wrong with what you said - it was wrong, that's what! Americans, in my experience both on forums and living in and amongst them, have a tremendous sense of pride in themselves, in their country. Indeed, I was brought up with this idea, at least until the age of nine, and I encountered it again when I returned to the States as a young adult. However misplaced this pride may seem, it is not a result of feelings of inferiority compared to other nations - they genuinely believe they live in the promised land and are the greatest people on Earth. I'm sorry that you conflated "defensiveness" with "a desire to correct a false statement".
Of course they have a tremendous sense of pride, and genuinely believe they live in the promised land and are the greatest people on Earth - that is not in doubt. The topic under discussion is why would such a preposterous and risible delusion be so widespread in the US. I have proposed one explanation, and I have not yet heard a better one. Nor, with respect, have you suggested one.
Brianwashing, sorry I meant early years education and constant media propulsion of the myth to such an extent that it makes the vaticans operation seem disticntly amateurish in brainwashing people.
I was addressing this post. That was the topic you raised, and the topic that I was discussing. No, I haven't suggested one, but as you have asked me so respectfully, I will oblige. I'm a little surprised that you haven't come up with a good one yourself, but never mind. People have two choices in life - they can either tell themselves (and anyone else who will listen) that they are really great people or they can tell themselves that they are schmucks. The majority (or the vocal ones, at least) with elect to tell everyone that they are great. Sometimes, it's not enough to say, "I am great", you need to validate the statement. One of the most common and powerful ways to validate oneself is by identifying with other people who are themselves great. There was a ready-made group of Americans who were demonstrably great, in living memory - the USA of the 1950s and 1960s. Economic prosperity, the American Dream, being a super-power, all of these had a powerful effect upon the American psyche. The fact that the USA of 2013 is nothing like the USA of the 50's and 60's - there was no OPEC, there was no Vietnam, only a string of US successes back then - is immaterial. Americans, like every other people on the planet, will measure their worth by reference to the high-tide point in their recent history, not against their current situation. You can see evidence of this phenomenon every time you hear someone talk about "The Sun Never Set On The Great British Empire" or "Hands Off Our Cornish Pasties", etc. Remind me, what was your suggestion?
"I put it down to underlying lack of confidence and trying to overcompensate." Your suggestion seems to amount to much the same as mine, at root. So perhaps we agree after all.
Orright. I have to chime in on this one as I've spent a LOT of time in the US over the past 15 years, have had several US girlfriends and currently have an American fiancee. I MIGHT end up living there part-time at some point. My observations are these: individually, they're nice enough people, no better or worse than anywhere else in the world really. They're also very lucky in that they live on one of the most beautiful and diverse continents in the world. The problems start when you look at US politics, society and culture. Looked at from this perspective, it's a horror show. They are unquestionably brainwashed from a VERY early age. Pledging allegiance to a flag every morning at school before you're old enough to have any idea what those words mean is straight out of Chairman Mao's handbook. I understand why this happened though. The USA is really 50 different countries (the states), some VERY different from the others. To get them to function as a single financial unit you have to ram the nationalistic BS down their throats HARD. Next, as a culture the US is OBSESSED with money. That's why you have to pay for a good education, healthcare and EVERYTHING else in the US. Also prob part of the reason El T seems to have been the victim of money-grabbing types. This has had some VERY crap side-effects, namely, when viewed as a whole nation, they are very poorly educated. US Politicians (who have to raise billions to get elected every 4 years) avoid this uncomfortable truth and take advantage of it by spouting convenient lies to get the money they need from sponsors. "USA is No. 1!!" Umm...well, no. Not unless you count the highest rate of incarceration per capita and gun-violence as the basis for that claim. So it's not the people really, it's the system that's broken over there. Alas, it seems to be getting worse and worse to be honest. I like Obama, I think his hearts in the right place. He's intelligent, realizes what's wrong and wants to turn things around. But my god he faces an uphill task! So that's my 2 penn'orth!! I'll climb back under my stone now
I can't help thinking the UK could do with some of that jingo-istic national pride. Won't be easy though, I think we as a nation are somewhat immune to false hope. Perhaps we don't drink enough coffee...
Nah, trust me, it's a bad thing. Too easily subverted by manipulative governments/corporations/people to get you to do things you'd NEVER otherwise do. Like start wars in completely the wrong countries!
