British Indy: What Happens Now?

Yes full access, did you not see the point about the same rights are all ready supplied to live, work and travel within europe to those already outside of the eu?

We will have the same rights of access to the eu that the other countries outside of the eu already have so I ask again

are you saying there is no one other than eu members living in the eu, working in the eu and travelling freely once in the eu?

 

Parliament has done little else but attempt to find resolution with Brexit for the past 3 years. We are going to end up leaving without an agreement, some call it 'crashing out' others 'clean break' but the words make no difference. It has been a game of cards played by both sides. I voted remain, would still wish we remained, but see no mechanism to enable this. However, given the arguments made by the Leave camp during the ref campaign, leaving without a deal was never going to happen, yet here we are.

Yes I know you will cite rabid remainers who have been holding out for a 2nd ref, but they were never in control of the process. Both sides have been as bad as each other and no one is willing to give an inch. So we 'crash out' or have a 'clean break' whichever is your preferred description, on Oct 31. It doesn't fill me with confidence for future trade deals if we can't exit our current trade deal on good terms.

 

I agree to a point but much of the remainer point of view/arguments etc has always been based on what we do with very little involvement what the eu are doing.

In many ways the extreme remainers (which is not all remainers) have been working with our own government to collapse leaving as the democractic majority peoples vote asked for. It has been made more difficult but mp's refusing the accepted way of asking the people, is not an excuse to do nothing

 

But isn't that the point? It isn't about the EU it's what we agree on within the UK and there has been very little of that. If you put the boot on the other foot and France had a referendum to Leave the EU in 2016 the UK would expect the EU to react exactly as it had. OK France doesn't have a NI border, but I'm sure they would have created some difficulties around the Basque region between France and Spain, it doesn't have a treaty like the GFA but they would have made something of it. The UK isn't entirely unique in this regard, all borders are artificial constructs. My point isn't the GFA, but that we were and remain (I like to get that word in) entirely unprepared for it.

 

The eu has history of wrangling things to make sure countries vote again if they do not like the result, they have done it multiple times before, holland, ireland etc. I genuinely believe they thought they could manipulate it again with the U.K.

This was supported I feel when the eu could see that that the U.K parliament was a remain parliament, so rather than offer a fair deal, they offered a deal worse than we currently have, would trap us with no legal out and no way to create deals for ourselves. I genuinely believe they offered this to help the parliament reverse the vote. I don't feel they expected it to take so long, cause mayhem within the eu but mostly, spectacularly backfiring on them.

They have now backed themselves into a corner more than May did, they have zero flexibilty to resolve this nor the desire too.They will have, like us, their business's shouting and screaming at them but they will not move. I'm okay with that, many leavers are okay with that because we said at the very beginning, go straght to a clean break/wto & free trade because then we have two years to resolve using a set of independent rules and guidelines to work too. That is why the eu project and their buddies in the U.K. government,commons,lords did not want wto because once it fell on the wto's doorstep, the eu would have lost control

We are were we are. The democratic majority peoples vote asked to leave, it was never dependent on a deal, the eu does not want to play ball , fair play so we stop wasting time and get on with the original request so we can return to stability and business's can know where they stand and where to build from.

 

Yes, but you're writing the EU into a corner you have constructed for them. I don't see a remain parliament, why would they vote for A50 if that was the case?

We leave without a deal, the world doesn't end but all sorts of things become more difficult. One of which will be the NI border. In the short term both sides abrogate it, if the current trade across that border remains the same all well and good, it's a pinprick. But as time goes by companies will be attracted to the opportunity of trade access between the UK /EU evading tariff and non tariff barriers by siting themselves close to the border (both sides) at some point the WTO and EU will call a halt to proceedings. So we will have to deal with it, but at the moment the pretence is we don't.

 

The old ni border, bless it's socks. The trouble that never was and the reason that is a sham is helped to be exposed by our favourite little mischief pixies, the snp.

The idea of leave is that we leave the eu control, we walk away, then end, no more eu telling the U.K. what it can and cannot do.

The good friday agreement (gfa) was created in 1998, amongst many other things, it was to ensure the removal and not recreation of the hard borders of old. No one wants to see a hard border manned with armed forces or police ever again.

Us leaving the eu does NOT mean this will happen. The U.K. has said this will not happen, the republic has said this will not happen and the eu, well nuances here are important, the eu has said the good friday agreement must be respected BUT all eu borders must have a hard border.

The eu have been very good in the pr race and convinced some remainers the U.K. must have a hard border even when we have left the control of the eu, cheeky bastids , we don't have to do shit they tell us to do, as that was one of the reasons why we are leaving. The eu are trying to control our future even after we leave


Now, article 50, in the late nineties early 00's. Those countries wishing to join the eu, were worried about getting trapped in the eu (sound familiar ?) so asked for a legal out and article 50 was created and came into effect in 2009, some 11 years after the gfa.

Now the backstop, was and remains, not a true reason for the U.K. not to leave the eu but was the hoped trump card of the eu to stop brexit but has rather backfired on the eu. To highlight this I'll use those cheeky pixies up north, the snp.

seeing what the eu is trying to do in Ireland, the snp know the eu will insist on a border between Scotland and the U.K. should the Scottish people vote to become independent, then throw that independence away and join the eu. Scotland will have no choice in this as within eu rules they must have controlled borders. So it is incredibly clear gfa or not, the eu will insist that any eu country must have hard controlled border controls. The snp have no issue with this



The truth of the backstop is when the U.K. leaves the eu, it WILL abide by the GFA, point blank, cannot be disputed and so will NOT raise a hard controlled border of old.

Now, away from the pr spin by the eu, the government of the republic knows gfa or not, the eu insist there must be a hard border with a eu country where it meets a country that has no eu dna within it so the choice the republic has , does it abide by the gfa or will it bow to the eu's demands of eu border 1st and gfa second?

Make no bones about the border claim, the U.K. has said no way, the republic has said no way, the eu has said to the republic, you're one of our bitches and our rules come first, time to choose.

 

so there will and there deffo wont be a hard boarder.
coolio.

 

The situation was made clear fin but I can simplify it if you wish. U.K. leaves the eu, U.K. says no hard border of old as per gfa on the U.K. side, we comply with gfa

Ireland says no hard border of old, meets the gfa

eu says, ireland is a member of the eu and gfa or not, ireland has to chose, does it meet the gfa or the eu?

What choice the irish have on THEIR side of the border is a discussion between the irish and the eu

should scotland throw away any independence it may win and join the eu, the eu will again due to it's rules, insist their is a border between the U.K. and Scotland and the snp will say , aye, no bother

 

but you say fuck yer hard boarder. Britain will do what it likes.
as hard as the unionists try to rekindle religious divides up here, we dont have a GFA issue to contend with.
you need trade. end of.

 

No fin, What has been said is that in regards to the gfa, the U.K. stands fast by the gfa and will not break the gfa and will not have any hard borders on it's side. We cannot however demand what ireland and it's overlord, the eu does on their side, that is for them to decide.

You in scotland may not have those gfa decisions to make fin but what the irish issue has shown, is that the eu insists on hard borders on all of its members when it borders non members, even more so where there is no eu dna (some level of control by the eu)

What the irish issue has shown is that Scotland, like the Irish, will have to abide by eu rules on borders and will have no say in the matter as that is part of the rules they signed upto

 

https://brexitcentral.com/myth-fric...i4B46h470Uldldnoez_1WP3EB15uOLxN_6pcDztYHliAU

 

That's him ruled out.

Fair play to the eu, they saw we had a weak hand, saw our politicians refuse to accept the vote even though the majority in the house voted to launch article 50 and had previously agreed the vote itself. The eu now having backed themselves into a corner will not budge on what they see as the deal they want to offer, it is most agree, worse than what we have.

So when you have one side say they want to negotiate but really want to play snap, and the other side asking, what deal of remain do you want us to try and sell to our people and voters as leave? then both sides have no movement because they want no movement.

This is why so many leavers have been saying since the chequers deal last July, fair play if that is all the eu want to offer, it is a bad deal so lets get on with leaving with a no deal