Nah Jezza was never going to pay. We as tax payers were finally being told that we were paying for the Uni education. No real difference to now. The debts are rarely paid by the students. Plus a good amount of it is unnecessary high interest.
Happy too on the first point. Shadow justice minister at the time a Mr Imran Hussain said, on video , the second one down https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ledge-to-wipe-off-student-debts-a3595646.html
So what we have is one of two options to accept or believe. Imran Hussain made a mistake, one which was wrong but accidental. Imran Hussain deliberately lied though he is as far as I am aware the only person who made such a claim/promise, which was clearly rejected by Corbyn in the link you supplied. Now on the other hand for example, balancing the books and immigration controls have been central Conservative manifesto promises for three elections. Loudly voiced by Cameron, May, Osbourne and virtually every Conservative MP. The magnitude of the lies or mistatements really doesn't compare to me. Still I could be wrong. Perhaps to others this is acceptable? What about you Noobie since you are clearly a guy who pays attention to detail - is it accepatble to you?
On the other points, immigration targets have always been silly I feel. One year we may need more land workers and the next year we may not. Free of the eu open door policy we can decide year on year or some roles much further ahead. That was the main brexiteer wish, not the figure so much but the ability to control it ourselves and dependent on need Balancing books is going to take longer. Anyone can be in opposition and snipe and Labour over the last 7 years have been very good at both, staying in their natural place and sniping. This has meant whilst trying to balance the books and instead of wanting to speed up the recovery, Labour has sought to continually rub salt into the very same wounds they created. nhs waiting times are not getting better I agree but to place that on just one party would be incorrect. The nhs now is doing more than it ever was supposed to do and has a budget at it's biggest ever. It was only meant to save lives and repair them not as some insist on now, to supply lifestyle choices, nor could it have ever foresaw the massive increase in teens mental health with the arrival of social media. The bigger discussion here would be once this brexit stuff has been sorted out is for all parties to say look, the nhs is like that old listed house, no matter how much money you throw at it, it will always demand more and then some.So now we as a nation need to decide what we want from our nhs and how much of that are we prepared to fund. At the moment the labour party do not want to do that as they get to hit the tories over the head with it regularly and when in government, never truly have that discussion either. Schools,like it or not many schools with massive migrant influxes are struggling starting off with the simplest of things as communicating with teachers and staff just in English, there is a cost to this in books, translators in schools etc. The obvious other cost is that many who have come over will not have had parents before them, putting into the pot throughout their working life in the U.K. If the parents of migrant children start work in the uk at 35 say as an example, and U.K. parents started putting into the schools pot at 20, then that 15 year shortfall has economic shortfall consequences times however many millions of people. Headmasters earning more than the prime minister rarely helps the schools budgets either. Both are simple economics Triple lock cannot be afforded long term simple. as to lies, I think very few politicians lie, I think some offer very optimistic hopes based on possibilities but most politicians do say what they feel to be true, more so at lower entry level The biggest problem any politician has, the biggest downfall any politician has, is the electorate who I have said over and over again, want Gucci services for primark money There is a third option on Hussain, he was told that by Corbyn at a shadow cabinet meeting and he simply repeated it.
We can also divest ourselves of the assumption, programmed into our political mindset by the EU freedom of movement concept, that unless we accept that all immigration comes with automatic citizenship or indefinite leave to remain, we are some kind of Hitler enthusiasts. Open-ended as well as open door immigration is preposterous in a country of this size - or any country come to that, if you want it to stay governable. Seasonal or cyclical skills shortages, insofar as they exist, can be met if all else fails - rather than as a lazy first resort - through temporary migrant labour whose numbers and duration can be controlled by short term visas. that's how the rest of the world does it and for very good reason.
So the immigration promises were never realistic? Why not? If unrealistic why are they continuously repeated? We all know the "less than 100,000" mantra. May was saying it again last June. Lets face it if you and I know its just not true (not a lie then) surely the PM should know this aswell after seven years -or twelve with her time in the Home Office? This immigration you say is partially the cause of the schools problem. Work permits would have resolved this. It cannot be reasonable to say that seven years of governance is insufficient time to have a policy. Balancing the books was never going to be an easy task. Possibly Labour would not have done a better job. But Osbourne said "Thanks to my action today, the structural current balance will be minus 4.8 per cent of GDP this year. That deficit will then be eliminated to plus 0.3 per cent in 2014-15 and plus 0.8 per cent in 2015-16. In other words, it will be in surplus". https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/22/emergency-budget-full-speech-text Very bold claims which entitled everyone to snipe as much as they like. If as you say a major problem with the NHS is that it is being used to repair peoples lives as opposed to simply saving them, why has the government not realised this? Same for the triple lock? The biggest problem any politician has, the biggest downfall any politician has, is the electorate who believes the promises made are true, and after seven years they really should know better. The second biggest problem any politician has, is the electorate have a long memory. The third Hussain option is surely a joke! LOL. Even if Corbyn is as stupid as you and other claim, he surely wouldn't decide to lie using a guy who no one has ever heard of. He could have simply said it all himself. Then after the election he would have acted on the promise or disregarded it completely like the Conservatives have on immigration and balancing the books. Which seems to be the norm?
Monies received by post communist countries are spent on infrastructure or expensive machinery. These projects are submitted in the form of tenders and need to be approved prior commencing. Once finished the invoices are checked over by EU and funds released. There is a small percentage that is not used for the intended purpose...corruption.(nothing is perfect) but certanly funds are not used for paying pensions. Give you one real life example. I have a business partner in Hungary that spent £90K on UK made woodworking machinery. 50% paid by EU funds 50% by the business owner..so basically £90k cleared to a UK bank account. From the £45k paid by EU a lot was German, UK,French, Italian contribution +£45k from the Hungarian guy, all came back to UK. IMO we should start to produce more and more quality products at competitive rates instead of concentrating on the services sector. Sadly the very same business had to purchase a German made CNC machine(Homag Weeke) for Euro 150K(again 50% EU funds) as there is no UK made high end woodworking CNC machinery!?? ...but this is a different story. To sum up the above. EU paid 120k the Hungarian guy paid 120k for this machinery but it all ended up into a UK and German bank account. These machines will need regular servicing more monies to come.... Net-contributors..yes,in exchange for what? - acces to those markets. - move those countries away from the Russian sphere of influence - cheap labourers (not Jeremy Corbyn ) Do you really believe UK, Germany, France are really that stupid to pay those monies without any benefits? Either way you have your opinion I have mine....but please do not make assumptions that I do not read or who I voted for just because my opinion is different. Theresa May has voted Remain..it seems she has followed JC and/or BBC just like me. Just to clarify I never voted Labour.
I think the immigration numbers were a hope by some but no, never were realistic and I was surprised May repeated them when she took over. Most brexiteers wanted control to match need instead of open door all and everything could come in even if we didn't need them. The target numbers for now are not possible, As technology, algorithms, A.I. and robots take over more and more jobs away from humans then a reduction in immigration will be needed to keep those here in employment but even the most basic of jobs say food picking could soon be without any human input. So a system in place to match numbers versus need before it happens instead of the usual after, would be a great step forward Work permits would have only sorted out from that point and not the shortfall of the missing years. Osborne was an ass but needed of his time. Austerity or as real people call it, living within your means, needed someone like him to clear the fuck up of the labour government . Where he went wrong was not sensing the mood, people knew the reason for austerity, understood Labour had done what Corbyn offers to do again, but after a number of years he needed to ease off the pedal a bit and start to give back those who have contributed the most, he didn't. The government knows full well what the nhs needs, but not one party will be brave enough to say it. Sadly the nhs is seen by far too many as a mother Theresa of services so people must not criticise it. Nor must they start to say it's about time it offered value for money. If I can rewrite this to be more accurate ? The biggest problem any politician has, the biggest downfall any politician has, is the electorate who believes the promises made are true because they want to believe them rather than often face upto reality, and after seventy years they really should know better than to kid themselves. The second biggest problem any politician has, is the electorate have a long memory and always view politicians as only good as their last favour they did for them. As to old Hussain, they had heard about him enough to know he was the shadow Justice secretary. After the election, like before the election, no one in Labour genuinely thought they would win (they haven't in the last 3 elections) so making false promises was typical of an opposition never to be in government so face up to the mendacious promises
Your aren't seriously saying the people who are misled by deliberate misstatements by their government for years on end, repeated continuously, are to blame? Its the victims fault? Nul points for that one! The Conservatives lost three elections prior top returning to power, its hardly uncommon. The huge problem of the NHS is the increase in life expectancy and treatment of these older people's illnesses & medical conditions. The government knew full well that this was going to happen. They failed totally to plan. They are still failing right now. I really don't understand why this possible lie (re student fees) is important to you. If that can be classed as a lie, this government and predecessors has said & done much worse in manifestos on a much larger scale, and you have no outrage whatsoever. Is it not the same rule for all sides?
I don't believe those saying it may see it as a deliberate misstatement, they may genuinely believe it. My point is politicians like most people in life will make a statement, it's then upto others to decide if they believe it and if they do not and to what point it should be evaluated.Unless you want the government to think for you to then yes it is down to those hearing it to make their own assessments, so lots of points for me Which is my point isn't it? Again, you are so busy being anti tory that you do not or refuse to see this has happened since the inception of the nhs. At every stage where a disease is killed off in the U.K.,limbs able to be sewn back on, diabetes controlled, aids pacified, people will live longer, old age is not the only cause of living longer. Which proves my point, all governments have not forseen, nor planned or sought to raise taxation high enough because people keep getting told free at the point of delivery and they have confused that with it needs very little money. According to the Kings Fund and without the recent budget top ups, the nhs budget for 2017/2018 for England is £123.8 billion. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget That was my point, all sides do it but to listen to you only the tories do it even though uni fee's were introduced by labour. There is no 100% in politics because it involves people, in regards to the actual topic, Brexit, I would trust the tories far more than Labour and my trust in the tories not selling us out is around 50/50 but I hope it actually turns out higher in the end.
You asked for positive reasons to leave the EU,I gave them. I'll also give you one real life example: Long before the Baltic states joined the EU,I travelled from St Petersburg to Estonia by road. The brand new Estonian highway was peppered every 100m with signs proclaiming,"Built with EU funds". All paid for by EU taxpayers,to a country that wasn't even guaranteed membership. In the real commercial world,that's called a bribe.
Or dependency. You have to ask why the eu have been happy for so long to allow a situation where two thirds of it's members, take out more than they put in? Even more so the country that takes out the most whilst putting the least in, Mr Junkers Luxembourg.
JC,Clegg,and even Blair have been anti-EU/pro-Referendum when it suited them: they are politicians,just like May. Which in this country describes a bandwagon jumper devoid of principle and only interested in furthering the interests of themselves and their fellow parasites on the backs of those who actually work for a living. You state your acquaintance received £45k of EU taxpayers money to buy the machinery...can you explain why you consider that payment to be beneficial,say,to a British woodworking firm that doesn't qualify for an EU grant? The new machinery that the Hungarian guy bought may help him undercut the British firm,and if those grants are multiplied may even cause them to close down and the British workers to lose their jobs? I did not assume you necessarily voted at all,(for instance,anecdotally,so many Remoaners etc couldn't be bothered to get their arses out of bed on Referendum day),let alone for a particular party,but your claim that good arguments for Brexit had not been put forward was untrue,because this thread is full of comment on how positive many see the future outside the EU,and why. We both have opinions,it's just that a lot more people shared mine than did the other one.Those of us who voted to leave the EU have been accused of racism,selfishness,bigotry and a whole lot more,simply because we,(and if the media are to be believed then many of us have experienced life before and after EU,"membership"),have used our experiences to form a different view. Those accusations continue,(even the last couple of pages), contributors to this thread have accused Brexit supporters of"voting selfishly",not being constructive",the usual thinly veiled insults...as if somehow voting to Remain,(and to now try to undermine a democratic vote),entitled such voters to claim some moral superiority and wear a halo...ffs,wheeling out a whole host of public sector parasites,Union bully boys , never-worked students and everyone who claims indeterminate gender doesn't exactly advertise a great deal of wisdom on the Remain side. I note you did not address,for instance, the impact the tariffs have on poorer people,a far greater issue for far more people at the bottom of the economic pile than the gifting of their tax money to a Hungarian businessman? I know how the EU grant system works,because my company has had one. Would I forego that opportunity in return for a clean Brexit? You betcha...there are more important things to life than money,and that includes trying to improve the lot of people who don't have any.
meh, i dont remember anybody on here jumping up and and down when we told three years ago by "better together" milliband, darling, camoron etc there would armed guards and boarder controls at Carlisle. unless noob and Co can contain themselves they will be oh here shortly telling me how dependent i am on english/Scottish trade. Bredon O'Niel, along with others, makes it up as he goes along. if i had time i bet i could find yer man contradicting himself in a thousand different ways. EU elites, Ha. and good morning brw.
Haha. Someone has had his "moron" supplements this morning. <insert evasion here> Morning finm! How are you doing, bro? Why are you on one of the political threads, haven't we spoken about this?
Seems like all the UK government posturing and threats has not worked. Now agreeing to pay substantial amounts to the EU.
morn loz. yip, but yer arguments still fail to convince me. i guess i am still proficient at recognizing bullshit when i see it. and being all out of the maple syrup i will have to pass on yer waffle.
