I don't think anyone has said that all Muslims are evil, but without Muslims there would be no Islam and Islam is incompatible with western values. It really is that simple.
Yep. Muslims next. Right after the gangbangers. My point is that when people discuss some issue, someone will come along and say, "Yeah, but there are worse problems in the world". I never understand this. In what way does a high murder rate in the USA affect the issue of freedom of speech in Europe? How does it affect our response to terrorism? Is there an order in which we have to address the issues affecting us all? Not having a pop here, I genuinely don't understand.
Absolutely agree in principle but if you consider that the home grown 7th July suicide bombers were essentially well integrated, some had graduated from Uni, married and had children. Yet they were still so indoctrinated and full of hate that they were willing to end their lives and kill random innocent Londoners. I cannot start to come to comprehend how someone can take that path. It's frightening that there are hundreds, possibly thousands of young British Muslims that could go off the rails and our increasingly bad reaction to Islam will be an accelerant to the process. Depressing situation that can surely only be helped by influential positive Islamic leadership and that's where the importance of the media plays a vital role.
Laudable. The main fear here is that by highlighting "positive Islamic leadership" within the community, you paint a big target on those individuals for the hard-liners to home in on.
@chizel good point well made. @Speed_Triple regarding integration i couldn't agree more, it fucks me off that some make no attempt to learn english that includes all people that move to the uk. and the rest off it, but taking the piss out of a group of people on such a touchy subject makes no sense even tho i defend the right to do it. wheres the intellect in that.
It is called radicalisation and is being fostered openly. What happened to the laws regarding incitement of religious hatred ?
actually you are quite right,, we ( they ) did try that , it is refered to as the Crusades,,, but the problem is not that they didn't succeed it is that they tried at all,, and still are setting them against each other and destabalising countrys with the accompanying terrible loss of life and destruction of structured society for our own agendas,,, hey , got news for some of you apparently,, they don't like it,,, waken up !!
firstly loz, i thought its was speed triple that posted what i was replying to (im sure you have no political aspirations at all!) I wasn't trying to say that we must address the violent crime both here and in the U.S before we address terrorism. It just seems some are hell bent on whipping up hysteria about the whole nation of islam and refuse to accept that it is an extremely small minority committing these atrocities. considering the vast amount of muslims on this planet (and in the uk), if they are all so inherently evil (as speedy seem to believe) why over the last 15 years would you have been 1800 times more likely to be killed by a fellow brit than a terrorist. The stats about the us were to illustrate this further as they are one of the main perpetrators of the dissing of islam (also the country that seems to profit most out of this whole affair). It seems to me emotions run high (and rightly so) when ever something like this happens and perspective goes out the window. As to speedys remark that murders in the uk where committed by individuals and this some how makes our nation more civilized i would say the acts or terrorism are committed by a small group of individuals not the whole nation of islam.
I must take issue with you there. They are not evil per se but, unfortunately, they revere a holy book whose pronouncements many non-Muslims would consider as evil. The key is persuading them to move into the 21st century along with the populations of those countries in which they've chosen to live. Chosen being the key word in that sentence.
I've known and worked with Muslims. Not one of them was a murderer, as far as I know. They were tolerant of my Western ways and enjoyed the benefits of living under Western laws, where these did not clash with their own beliefs. I sometimes wondered what would have happened if I asked them whether if, tomorrow, Sharia law was in place instead of the UK legal system. Would they be upset? Interestingly, I did not feel comfortable asking them such a thing. They were colleagues at work, not friends or people from my social circle so I felt it would have been inappropriate to draw them into a conversation about their faith. My suspicion is that, if Sharia law were imposed, my Muslim colleagues would have adapted readily. The additional restrictions would not have impacted upon them in the same way as they would in my case. So, "moderate" muslims have little to fear from a move towards Islamic orthodoxy, in my opinion. Correct me if you think I could be wrong on this. The majority of Muslims are not overtly violent to non-Muslims, as far as I know. They have no need to be violent as no one is forcing them to live outside of their own Islamic values. If the violent tendency within Islam were to achieve its aims, so be it. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."
At risk of repeating myself, muslims can become ex-muslims. They can give up their evil beliefs, leave their backward societies behind them, and enter the world of reason. It is very difficult for people to do this, since it requires courage and intelligence, but thousands have done so in UK alone and more are becoming ex-muslims all the time. They deserve and need every possible support, encouragement and protection. If eventually all muslims became ex-muslims, the entire problem would be solved. There is no need to advocate killing all muslims; just enabling them enter the modern world would be enough.
hands up all those guilty of digging there heels in when there beliefs are criticized. right i will go first. i am now touching the ceiling
when you say " evil ", are you refering to that which is done in our names by predominatly the US and Britain in the mid east this present day,, shocking as it is what has happened over last few days it shades into insignificane compared to the horrors which are being perpetrated upon untold families in Iraq ( a hell hole created by allied troops ) and the plains of Syria as we speak,, but hey they don't matter as they are mostly muslims,,, well it does matter to them and other muslims throughout the " civilised " ( sic ) world.
Oh for god's sake ... not that old chestnut! You might as well hold Britain totally responsible for the plight of the Aborigines because we exported our criminals Down Under or for the slave trade, which was massively contributed to by Arab traders and Africans themselves. Please look at the facts. I don't think we should have got involved in Iraq but it was an evil dictatorship and I was, as were many people it seems, concerned by the WMD claims. But once we removed Sadaam, we did what we said we would and left the country to the Iraqis, who incidentally don't want the coalition to pull out now. The problem remains that there is no history of democracy in the Middle East, so they don't know how to handle freedom and making choices and are more comfortable being told what to do by dictators or theocrats. Also, are you saying democracies should always look away when other states treat their citizens abominably? Surely we or the US would have attempted to intervene when Germany started its ill treatment of Jews, if we had known it was happening? That might have saved six million lives. And Muslims don't seem to need any help from the West in being set against each other. If you read the coverage of yesterday's events in The Times today you'll see that some Muslims are condemning the attacks because they "did much more harm to Islam that the cartoons they objected to", Shias are blaming Sunnis, and others are blaming the cartoonists for bringing their deaths upon themselves. Some are even saying that France's government should have prevented the publication of the cartoons FFS! The utter stupidity of religious zealots has been recognised for centuries. Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels documents a war between those who believed boiled eggs should be opened at the "big end" and those who believe they should be opened at the "big end". The Catholics and the Protestants, at whom that 18th-century satire was directed, didn't kill anyone as a result of the publication the novel I believe. From this I deduce that even back in the 18th century Britain's population was more advanced than that of many Muslim countries today. Of course we'd long had our religious upheavals by then, and there are only so many heretics you can burn before you realise that other people's views need to be respected because you may find yourself as one of those "other people" one day. Unfortunately backward, humourless people will always struggle with that concept.
as ive said earlier in this thread my ex girlfriend is Pakistani (not muslim but her family is) modern muslim though (as apparently there is no such thing a moderate) and they would shit themselves if somehow the stuck in the dark ages minority did come to impose sharia law as they would be expected to know better and considered worse than us!
