Let the Scots decide. However, once the decision is made, whatever the outcome, the SNP will have played their card and win or lose they have to abide by the decision.
No problem fella, no intention to offend here either Have made me think whether my apathy is a lack of caring what happens in Scotland, not my country after all, or jealousy because there is already more self-governing than we have and the govt seem to consider the wider population(health care costs, schools fees etc) OR that that the Scots I have had personal interaction with often tend to have a bigger chip than McCains and the event I went to in Edinburgh, every YES exponent started their pitch with 'the English...' Clouds my view
But you have to view in terms of the ages the conquest was committed. Today we know better. Back then that was what happened. It was perfectly acceptable to do those things back then because no-one knew any better. There were just as many black men selling slaves as white men. But thats unfashionable to state but I am afraid its true. Egyptians, romans, greeks, china, everyone sold slaves. No one understood it back then. It was only our educational renaissance that gifted us majority the ability and opportunity to understand how truly awful it is and change things. Nations mature. Don't get me wrong it was a terrible thing. But don't make the mistake of viewing it in terms of present day morality. The weak have always been prey to the strong, throughout the ages. Had we no Royal Navy nor had we protected our trade, do you suppose we would never have been invaded? The French and Spanish would have been over here quicker than you could swish a fancy cape. Britons, by and large, are descended from a band of ruffians, pillagers and invaders. The Normans (who are descended from Norsemen who invaded that part of france, hence their name), the vikings (no one mention any spam), saxons, angles. Even the picts and celts are the fighty types and I haven't mentioned the Romans, and their troops over here on the frontier would have been nut job fighty blokes. Kicking arse and invading is in our genetics. Look how many new places we went and opened up. N.America, Australia...we can't help it. We were predisposed to it. Alas though we developed a conscience. Hence we've hidden apologetically and politely and gave it all back. People viewing the UK in 1000yrs will have a far different outlook. Like how we admire ancient Rome and Egypt.
Boots agree, our heritage is magnificent and we have brought so much to the world and if we didn't, the frogs would have My point is still about how the world see English now, and how that now affects how we English now see English: UKIP, EDL, BNP are what anyone who walks around with a flag on their back are associated with. Do the same with the St Andrews cross and its ok.
I agree that is how the English see the English but I don't think that applies to the rest of the world most of whom do still hold the British in high regard.
i think i get it. in 6weeks time scotland gets the chance to form it's own government so as you can imagine it's pretty big. the rest of the uk dont get a say or tho it's pretty massive for yous doods to. not only do you not get the vote you also cant get to air your views without some bad tempered Scotsman trying to shoot holes in your arguments. i can talk about it but you cant a bit hypocritical now that i think about it. So as you know, the yes side have produced a very positive case for independence whilst the no campaign up until Monday produced a very negative and condescending campaign aimed at putting the fear in to the undecided.(not quite using the word scrounger but almost) for people like me and many many others being told you dont have the capacity to govern your own affairs really gets on my tits. and has swung a few to the yes. although this has been going on now for 3 years and all of us up here have talked about it, it really is only kicking off now. back to Mondays debate. darling deffo came out on top but it's early days yet and timing will be critical due to the length of time this has been going on. i cant imagine and hope the big hitting arguments wont come out to much closer to the day so don't go underestimating salmond just yet, like it or not he is an excellent at doing what he does. now i am gonna do my best to stay out of any future threads relating to the in/out debate so as you guys and girls can get on with discussing your fears and hopes for the uk.
Interesting reading the views back and forth here. We do seem to have reached a point where the Scots can run about with nationalistic fervour, flapping about in saltires and actually having a vote on things while the conquering country of the Union has no vote. It has long been a trait of left wing politics to try and associate any form of nationalistic pride with racism and/or fascism. I recall at Uni, drinking in the "Karl Marx Bar" as it was renamed and being called a fascist for not wanting a copy of Socialist Worker - an oxymoron in my view. So we now have this weird situation where Scots are denied the vote if they don't live in Scotland right now. The majority English south of the border have no say and respond by ceding more power to an already devolved parliament without taking powers away from Scottish MPs to vote on affairs in England. As a nation, the English have gone from empire building and world leading to taking the PC line and stepping way beyond it. It's small wonder the likes of UKIP and other movements are starting to take hold. It should be the mainstream parties who relish the chance to reassert ourselves without fear their actions are seen as racist. The US has no problem with blatantly self-interest driven actions and I see no reason England should not focus on ourselves first. As an example, the UK government just gave another few millions to certain African countries to assist with the Ebola outbreak. I can support that but I'd be pretty sure a lot of other countries have not bothered at all, I also wonder if an independent Scotland would bother in the hypothetical scenario in the future if the same crisis arose, the SNP seem 100% focussed on Scotland alone and wouldn't have the same world view I would envisage. The Scots will probably vote to stay with us but I'd much rather they went independent.
i can see this aint gonna be easy, one last thing. the same politicians telling us its not possible are the same ones many on here don't trust. right thats it. i'm aff.
Of course Scotland could go it alone but you would never find a better together politician saying that. The question is whether the majority of the people of the UK be better off and the overwhelmingly logical answer is No. The SNP have hopefully shot their bolt and the people of Scotland can get back to the real issues that affect all of us in the UK. It will be fascinating to see what happens to the SNP after what I hope and believe will be a No vote. The Labour party in Scotland was eventually seen for what is was, the vested interests of the public sector and the political class, who will the majority of Scots turn to ? Scotland is a deeply conservative country yet they will not embrace the Conservative and Unionist Party. Devolution and the West Lothian question have done us all a great disservice.
Interesting reading @johnv (still don't know how you do the red linkie thing)..................Edit see I just did. I think it will be a No and I'll be thankful if & when that occurs. On a purely selfish level I think Devolution has been good for the Scots but overall bad for the country (I mean the UK), which is, I agree, overall not good and devicive. I also see it as hypocritical that only the Scots have a vote in this but it deeply affects the English also. The West Lothian question should have never been permitted from Day 1. If a Yes did occur the biggest danger I see is the political systems..............I see England as being almost entirely Conservative with a possibility of further gains for UKIP (who I see as the National Front but in politically correct clothes) but Scotland being well to the left Labour or SNP (with SNP having to lean more and more to the left to get the vote). That deeply worries me quite apart from driving the wedge deeper, I have no desire to live in a country that leans heavily to the left. I have seen the damage our left wing cooncil does as it gets voted in ad nausium for the past knows how long, its scary scary stuff. Interesting to see a bit of IMHO vitriol from some (reading between the lines) towards the Scots, I have no such feelings towards the English. I think the North of England particularly has more in common with the Scotland than the South of England where wealth has been concentrated for short term gain with the financial sector and industry being left to rot (relatively) and mainly by a Labour Government whose chancellor was a bloody Scot (and an arrogant prick to boot). To me its just all one island and God knows of we can't get on together, the prognosis for future existence is poor at best. Then again I'm getting on and no longer a testosterone fueled yoof with all the certainty of opinion that it brings. The older I get the more I despair but I guess that's the plight of aging. I do agree with the negative comments on the tartan, bag pipes, whisky and everything that goes with it, it makes us an irrelevant anachronism, besides a lot of that shite never existed per Se, most being dreamed up/heavily embelished by Walter Scott.........the bastard. John
