I think you are living in a very ideal world there, Andy. You wont get that from any manufacturer. Ducati appear to do more than most manufacturers by sometimes fixing things FOC out of warranty. There is no way of knowing just how those bikes that have blown engines have been treated especially if they have had more than one owner. Mechanical things can and do fail. It does not have to be the fault of the manufacturer.
Ideal world......yes true, but I still feel Ducati could do better. How the engines in question have been 'treated'.....I doubt any of them have been actually 'abused' in use or maintenance (who wouldn't take at least reasonable care of their £10,000+ motorcycle??), none of them are track bikes so are hardly going to have been pushed to the limits often if at all (and there are protections such as the rev limiter).....would any of these bikes been run without oil for instance, that would be a factor that could cause damage, I'm not a betting man but my money would be on none of them. My money would be on flawed parts / design flaw (e.g. oil pick-up or oil galleries supplying main bearings for instance) / inconsistency in assembly at the factory.......but what do I know! lol
I will declare that one of these bikes Andy mentions is my old bike. I cannot go into details at present, but I can say the bike was treated with respect when I had it, and beleive the new owner would do too (I know him). There is no question of abuse, and the failure was instant, didn't get progressively worse. I totally agree that mechanical things can and do fail, but if a part fails at a relatively short time in its life (age or mileage) it is exactly that, a failure, not wear and tear. It is therefore reasonable to expect the manufacturer to cover the cost of the failure if it has been serviced in accordance with their procedures. The service intervals are after all set to ensure correct and safe operation. If service intervals should in fact be every 6k to avoid major mechinical issues, lets have them. That said, there are only a small number of incidents of engine failure (so far), so I subscribe to the 'dont worry about it' school of thinking, and hope Ducati will do the right thing.
I have been informed by the new owner that the inspection has revealed the big end bearing broke up. Despite stopping the engine straight away (he was slowing for a roundabout) the rod has marked the crank, and loose parts gone through the gearbox :/ Ducati have agreed to pay the parts costs, he has to pay labour and fluids. Whilst some would argue the owner should not have to pay the labour (its not his fault the part failed), I think this is a reasonable outcome, and big respect to Ducati for covering the cost of the parts (in the order of £6k).
Remind me of the mileage John...............that's a fairly reasonable outcome I suppose for an out of warranty situation but to be honest, as you say, with no blame on the owner we know that flawed parts / design flaw (e.g. oil pick-up or oil galleries supplying main bearings for instance) / inconsistency in assembly at the factory can be the only cause. Main bearing failure so early in the bike's expected life is in my opinion unacceptable and clearly the bearings (or something related) was NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE - the owner should pay nothing!
So are they repairing it, or giving him a new engine? It could take days of labour to rebuild an engine.
I was told by the chap that fitted my engine it would take about 3 to 4 hours to rip my old engine apart, would imagine it would be alot of hours to take engine out, strip it, fix it, then rebuild all at £55 per hour! Think I got a good deal lol
Please don't think I'm being rude, but I think some of the content on this read is bordering on paranoia. Motors do fail sometimes. Not just Ducati motors, but other makes too. This is after all, a production 1200cc motor pushing out 170 bhp at the crank. By any measure, it's high performance. For a v-twin, it's putting a lot of strain on the bearings. For me, I was prepared to take on a high mileage bike, gambling on the motor possibly going wrong against the condition of the rest of the bike and the cost. As it turned out, there was a problem, but one I found before I handed any money over. I buy any bike or car with the same view - what's likely to go wrong against my perception of the condition of the vehicle. Doing to this, I've been lucky enough to have had no mechanical problems on any of the vehicles I've owned. Ever. It's impossible to say say motors fail. The mutley I was buying looked perfect, but on closer inspection, there were a few scratches on the extremities, which indicated that it had been dropped. If the motor was running, or the crank was bumped, that would have been enough to cause damage to the bearings. A later owner wouldn't know that and could attribute a failure to manufacturing defects, design or anything else they pull out of the air at random. Its not just mutleys that have had engines let go: I know a couple of testastretta motors that have run their mains for no apparent reason. Is this statistically unusual across all the makes? I don't know, but probably not. Most manufacturers will have a few motors fail. I guess I'm saying shit happens.
Andy, around 20k to 21k. jcmental, they are rebuilding it as far as I know. Chris, I don't know what they actually charge, but £55 per hour is possibly a bit light. Yes a replacement engine could well be cheaper, but its another unknown engine, that may well have issues itself. Jerry, I accept what your saying. My bike had never been dropped. It was running fine when I sold it and the new owner accepts this. It did however break a ring in June 2012, for which Ducati replaced the heads / barrels / pistons under warranty. My concern is that they did not correctly investigate and diagnose at that time, just replaced what was damaged. There is no paranoia on my part. i am declaring facts, not speculation. I agree that any make / model can fail. I think the point here is trying to determine, like the fork leg issue, is whether there is a common theme starting to develop. Personally I think there is, in that those that have failed seem to be roughly the same parts failing. Thats not to say they will all suffer this problem though. Will it put me off my current bike ? hell no. Will it stop me buying another ? not if they (Ducati and dealers) look after their customers, as they appear to be doing. Oh, and I do agree shit happens. Its how the shit is dealt with that matters
As per Jerry's post above, this is verging on paranoia, so an out of warranty engine fails and its a design or manufacturing fault is it? Think about it from Ducati's position, they waved goodbye to this at the factory gates a couple of years ago and apart from a couple of visits to a dealership they do not know what has happened to it. I am not questioning any of the previous owners or blaming them in any way but who knows what has happened, has it been thrashed to within an inch of it's life every day, has the oil been topped up with chip fat (it is oil isn't it?), has the oil been changed between dealer services and chip fat been used, has the oil ran very low on a long tour, did the level plug get stolen/fall off allowing water and road dirt to get in etc etc. Now before I am lambasted I am not blaming the owner or previous owner but simply pointing out that Ducati has no knowledge of what has happened, yet they have offered to cover parts on an out of warranty failure with no knowledge. As for Ducati, like the majority of manufacturers I am sure they will look at failures and parts sales and have a good idea of whats good and whats not, they won't over analyse individual failures. As for it being not fit for purpose, that is just fantasy on a bike that is at least 2 years old as you would have to prove it and as part of that you would have to prove that the owners have not influenced the failure in any way. I don't want this post to be seen as a dig at anyone, particularly the current or previous owners or a rose tinted view on Ducati's engineering prowess but rather a more balanced view, for the record I think that Ducati's offer is a good start and who knows maybe they could be prepared to go a little further if approached in the right way.
Well lets look at this in terms of component level. everything has a design life, which most would hope is more than a bit longer than the warranty period. wear and tear is one thing (like brake pads, valve shims, etc) but other things do fail, for a number of reasons. i've not said its either manufacturing or design, but if 3/4/6 or more all fail in roughly the same way, it would indicate there is a similar failure pattern. This may be one of the parts, or something that influences it (such as incorrect clearance, or lack of lubrication). Yes, but they specify a service interval, and this is meant to ensure the vehicle is maintained to an acceptible level for both safety and usability. the same is true with the ohlins fork failure. It started with only one report... (I'm not suggesting for one minute the two are the same, just an analogy that any failure has to be reported to start with, and only when the public / press / factory develop a clearer picture of the type and scale of problem, can they act). All perfectly sensible to question, and can generally be judged by the condition of the bike, and raport they have with the dealer. I am perfectly happy that I treated my bike with the care it deserved. I have a number of bikes and this is the ony one to break a ring, and then drop a big end too. By the way, a mates 955 Triumph did a big end in France a few years back. The engine got him home, but the crank and rod were trashed. They did not however punch any holes in the rest of the engine. so yes, other manufacturers do have similar incidents, albeit on a much older bike. I agree, and this is why they request the bike to be stripped (at customers expense) and the parts then sent to them for inspection. They then make a decision based on what is presumably equivalent to an engineers report. What I reported this morning is the outcome of this, relayed to me by the current owner. I would agree, and would expect them to use these failures to learn from, and potentialy re-engineer those parts to avoid future failures. i am thinking the flaky rockers on 996 engines here, that went through a good number of re-designs over the years. I partly agree, but this depends on your enterpretation of 'fit for purpose'. This comes down to intended design life, and if failures fall significantly short of this on a large number then yes its a problem. i don't beleive there have been a large number though, and therefore agree with you. I've not taken it as a dig, and Don't shoot the messenger I would doubt there is any movement on the offer made, but I'm not in the loop so have no idea whether the current owner is negotiating on this or not. Like I said, its about information. Although I have known about this since the start of March when it happened, I have not posted until I knew the result of the inspection, and what Ducati were going to do about it. I've only posted now in the hope it helps to build a picture, not to feed some frenzy. Hope that makes sense
I always thought the contract of sale was with the supplying dealer ? So if Ducati don't give any assistance, does that then leave you without recourse with the dealer directly? To me, would it simply mean the dealer cannot recover costs from the manufacturer but are still obliged to assist.
Well yes, when you buy something from a shop, the contract of sale is between the purchaser and the supplying shop. But that is not all there is to it. Consumer protection law has been developing for over a hundred years now, and has come quite a long way. For manufactured, packed or branded products, the manufacturer has considerable responsibilities too.
Not having a dig here Andy, but all those highlighted words mean that you don't know how the bikes were treated and nor would Ducati even if they stripped the bikes down. I am still of the opinion that you use the very best oil you can when servicing your bike as it does make a big difference in these sorts of cases. The guy who services my 748 used to race them at one time and he says that until he began using Motul 300V he had lots or problems with failed bearings but since he changed oil type he had none. My Aprilia Tuono V twin had a big end fail. Everyone had told me how bullet proof those motors were but when it went for repair under warranty, the dealer told me it was the 3rd one they had repaired with that fault in a year. Now that is an manufacturing issue. ( and it took Aprilia and the dealer 4 months to rebuild it but that's another story).
I do know a fair bit about at least 3 cases, one a guy that lives 15 miles away from me and discussed in detail, one JohnW who I know well enough to respect both his attitude towards bike care and his knowledge/experience of bikes/motors and the third, a guy in Malaysia contacted me direct and subsequently forwarded a dozen or more emails plus loads of photos going into great detail re his case. As for what Ducati can tell from examination of the bust engines.........a good mechanic may be able to spot tell tales if there are any. I presume that the bust engines are returned to the Ducati factory?.......if I was the man making the decisions I'd be having detailed examinations of the parts done (microscopic examination......a close look at fractures for example will give up the cause.......a close look at bearing shells and other parts will show if they've been subjected to abnormal heat cycles etc etc). I think it very likely at this point that Ducati know exactly what the cause/causes has been......it would be foolish for them not to have thoroughly investigated what could be in the worst case scenario(s), life threatening failures. As John said before hopefully/most likely the few examples of engine failures we know of are isolated examples however the commonality in most/all cases (main bearings) may be an indicator that there may have been a series of bikes come out of the Ducati factory that were always going to fail (and there may be more of these bikes that have yet to reach the end point). Not trying to scaremonger or anything, just saying that this is one scenario that is quite possible. Servicing and quality oil - I agree absolutely.........to the extent that my bike gets an interim oil change! :-O (Shell Advance Ultra 15/50w as prescribed of course plus Ducat filter plus coarse/gauze filter checked and cleaned every oil change) - OTT, yes but that's me lol
So let me get this straight. Using cheap halfords oil, at the right viscosity, is now the cause of Ducati big ends being knocked out. Therefore they and every other engine manufacturer can abdicate any responsibility linked to component or construction failure. Thats the argument thats building, right?! In which case mine is going back at the end of the PCP and I'm only buying old sheds from now on
Right viscosity and meets standards compliance is the only requirement. Anything else is marketing bumf or manufacturer tie in. A recommendation is simply that, it is not a requirement.
agreed psy. Personally I use what the dealer uses, and then put in motul When outside warranty (same reasons as mentioned above, my local place uses it and races, with no problems, plus its cheaper - always a bonus ) When on a trip, the bikes get whatever they have available, make wise. Any oil of the right type / viscosity is better than too little oil. I think andys point is that to use exactly as recommended means there is no ambiguity over suitability. In nearly 4 years and 20k miles my mts only needed topping up once, having never made it to the minimum line mark on the window. On the other hand, my ST4S would drink 1/4 a litre a day if we got serious in the alps, with lots of low gear work and engine braking. I used to carry a spare litre of oil with me for such occasions Bradders, you've already said your handing your bike back at the end of the term, so none of this affects you, just look away now
