Pretty good thanks. What's it like being so opinionated that you write off an opinion without properly reading the facts?
I like Boris Johnson and I am not surprised that he has spoken out against the cap. I wouldn't expect anything else of him. He as a job to do, and that is to lobby for London. The City of London is the most powerful bit of it, so you would expect him to represent its interests. He will also have all sorts of influential friends in banking circles. And it is true, that as Europe's foremost financial centre, it is the City that runs any risk there is to be run by capping banker bonuses. But, that risk is not proven to be a reality and the debate is a bigger one than just whether or not bankers are going to be pleased or displeased. I find it amusing that bankers are looking to top footballers to strengthen their case; i.e. if Wayne Rooney can earn ludicrous sums why not them? Well, I think you'd find plenty of people in favour of capping footballers' pay. The £200k a week Rooney, or however much he gets paid these days, wasn't even in the starting eleven for the Real Madrid match this week. So is he worth the cash? Doesn't look like it.
It's not just to do with bankers though - its to do with banks, and banks bring/attract a huge amount of associated business with them, enriching the country they are based in. Also all these guys (individuals) pay taxes, excessive taxes, of 50%+ on bonuses, producing huge income for the govt. those taxes don't just get spent back on the rich 'elites' who put the money in, but across the board. So I'm sorry Johnv if I am not more understanding of your mind numbingly ignorant 'elites for elites' bullshit. And Loz, he probably ate some tesco value muesli and a piece of stale toast. That's my prediction.
Ted, I'm interested. Do you think anything should change, or should everything just carry on as has before? If market forces are the only things that should be listened to, what do you suggest when the entire industry melts down and goes cap in hand to the state for cash to survive? Should we just say no and watch the entire industry go to the wall? I'm genuinely interested. After all, you have worked in the sector.
Be amazed if they pay the tax due, maybe legally but not as a normal paye would. A bit like being a consultant or self employed, off set everythng possible and some, then pay their company and the applicable corp tax at less than 20% rather than 50%....now my bonus comes minus 41% straight off, whether ts a £100 or £10000....funny enough like most 'bankers' who work on a normal loving wage rather than the big bucks ;-) In a linked thought, I wonder how much tax Phillip Green pays these days?! Its not just bankers...
Aaah,the,"they pay a lot of tax",nonsense.... If you charge me £100 for something,I pay you £100.If you then pay part of that to the Government,and get left with say,£75 to spend,it matters not a jot to me,because I PAID YOU £100.You didn't pay the tax out of the good of your heart,I paid you the money to pay the tax. And if you multiply the figure by millions,the actual transaction remains the same,in that your Customer/Employer/Whatever gives you a larger amount than you end up with,so you can give some back to the Government... And just one other thing: if everyone earned £25k a year,they'd all pay broadly similar amounts of tax,at the same rate. If some people earn 50k a year,they pay the same rate on the first 25k as everyone else,but maybe a slightly higher percentage on the next 25k And if a few people earn £100k,they pay the same tax on the first 25k as everyone else who only gets 25k ,and then the same as everyone else up to 50k,etc,etc. Everyone pays virtually the same rates and amount of tax up to a certain amount. Over that pretty high figure,you're going to get hammered. But you're bloody lucky that the peasants:biggrin: haven't revolted and strung you up for being a greedy bastard*,so all this bleating about paying the Government back a few quid of what other people have paid you,doesn't wash with me.
Pin oatmeal poridge with wallnuts, prunes and honey washed down with Japanese organic green tea if you must know. But two out of three ain't bad Maybe the elites for elites strikes a raw nerve, or maybe you just like to think you are an elite ?
Bradders - they don't pay all their taxes which needs to be clamped down on, but I guess their argument would be they are already paying far more both in nominal and proportionate terms (50% versus me a bit lower!). People are always going to pay the least tax they can, and it's the government's responsibility to make sure this isn't possible - an endless cat and mouse game. At least they are paying some (a lot of) money, that otherwise we wouldn't have. Also they cost a lot less in proportion to the income they generate for the crown as they don't use welfare, other government services. With my hedge fund hat on, they are a solid investment in terms of people we want here for prosperity as a country. Gliddofgood - I don't think we can have a rampant free market, where boom and busy cycles can get out of hand, but that happened in this case because there wasn't legislation to stop this from happening. In a dynamic and global economy we need govt/regulators who act dynamically and globally to prevent civilians getting hurt and keep the cycle calm. What we got was a half wit chancellor and treasury who didn't dare put the proper controls in place while riding a wave of prosperity (exaggerated by grossly mismanaged leverage across society and the whole country, from mrs smith borrowing for her conservatory, to stupid m&a offers funded by cheap and easily available money supply). Basically short answer we can't retrospectively hold people responsible for doing what was legal - or make decisions on our individual concept of morality, otherwise we are not a democracy or a safe place to do business in the world. Johnv - sorry I don't mean to be personal, I apologise. I don't consider myself an elite but I'm proud of what I've achieved with little help both in finance and more so, in business in a short time. Your elites comment did strike a raw nerve, but because it reminded me how many people here just hate success; I doubt many of them know how hard many successful people have worked to become so, or the sacrifices they have made. We all live and die by our decisions and should not be too judgemental or let our own regrets or differences cause us to be chippy without knowing the details. Lightning - don't follow your logic? Rich people pay more as a £ amount, and greatly more as a % amount. I am not saying we should applaud whenever we see a Mercedes, a desmosedici etc, but personally I'm always ready to acknowledge and respect someone who has contributed to the economy, especially when it's more than me.
Thank you. This is the Lounge section of the Ducati Forum and sometime we make reasoned comments and other times we shoot from the hip. I have never hated success where that success has been gained by hard work. Absolutely.
I have never seen any sign in this forum of anyone who "hates success" as you put it. There are loads of people who hate extreme greed, rewards for failure, and tax avoidance among other abuses. Are you one of them, or not?
The amount of tax a highly-paid chap pays on the first £25K of his income is just the same as the amount of tax a low-paid chap pays on the first £25K of his income. The highly-paid one only has to pay tax at a higher rate on the upper reaches of his income. The concept seems very simple, well-known and straightforward to me - what's not to follow?
No, decent honest people are always going to pay their taxes and make their contribution in full, as most do. The people you mention who devote their energies to paying "the least tax they can", i.e. avoiding tax, are the other kind. And they're the kind this country would be better off without.
Last message I direct at you, as I can see you really won't listen to anything said. I have never seen any sign in this forum of anyone who "hates success" as you put it. There are loads of people who hate extreme greed, rewards for failure, and tax avoidance among other abuses. Are you one of them, or not? Rewards for failure are a problem experienced at corporate level. In banks (investment banks i'm talking about here), sales/trading/analysts/m&a guys, all get paid a % of the revenue they generate as a team in bonus allocation. This is then assigned to the team members by the heads. So the UBS, GS of this world rarely if ever reward failure. If you are talking about golden parachutes etc, it's nothing to do with the bonus cap and you are being confused. Am I extremely greedy? If by wanting to be independently wealthy, successful, and being able to support myself and my loved ones in the life I/they want, you mean extremely greedy, then absolutely. I worked an average of 15 hours a day for the last 2 years I worked in the city to do that, and i'm working 13 hours a day now running my business. So whatever I want out of it is frankly, none of your business. If you want to be richer, work harder. If you are unhappy and bitter with your lot, change it. Or jump off tower bridge. Tax avoidance - it's inevitable that people/corporates will go to where comparable life is easiest and cheapest. That's why all the rich guys live in Monaco etc. I don't avoid tax personally no, and I just (2 months ago), paid a 6 figure tax bill. I'm not apologising for it, I don't particularly get pleasure out of being such a large contributor, but if that's what it required then at least I can be proud of the fact that it's useful. In response to your sarcastic post about tax, yes I understand thank you - what I don't understand about lightning's post is how he doesn't appreciate that wealthier people and wealthier corporations do pay a lot more tax, both in nominal terms and disproportionately in % terms. You don't seem to get it either. Last thing on tax - we are better off having a starbucks, a goldman, who net net contribute tens/hundreds of millions to HMRC a year. The rights and wrongs of how much they pay as a % is one thing, but if you want to say goodbye to tax dollars when we are so badly screwed as an economy right now, then you are a retard. Sorry if the formatting is odd on this message. I'm not going to try and convince old farts who are set in their ways that wealth isn't evil, and i'm not going to waste time to-and-fro ing with idiots who debate the details forever. If you don't realise that losing a massive profitable industry, the associated wealthy people who are part of that industry, and the reputation of the UK as being a stable, safe, and top flight place to transact in global markets, would be a bad thing net/net, and we should try to keep these people here instead of making stupid laws that move them away to other countries (a lot of my former colleagues are now in Switzerland already), then that is not going to bother me.
Buddy,I've been running my own business for 20 years.Working hard for long hours doesn't always lead to riches.Doesn't bother me,I've got more than I'll ever need,but I'm not wealthy in the financial sense anyway. I didn't say that rich people didn't pay more tax,because they do,and they should.I was pointing out exactly what Pete_1950 did,but he did it far more eloquently. Are you extremely greedy?I don't know you,but no matter how rich you become you'll still be dependent on people who are less well off than you.The reason you'll pay a little more tax, (on the amounts you earn in excess of the average),is so that those people have a chance of a reasonably good life.You wouldn't want your Servants and your Gardener to go without healthcare would you? Not everyone will have the chance to be wealthy,old bean,for many reasons apart from laziness.So go on...be reasonable...stump up like a man...people will love you for it,I promise...
Tedward, I see you like to put up straw men to knock down, whilst ignoring the points that others have actually made. Perhaps you can't be bothered to read or think about the posts you respond to. Fine, so be it - that's your choice. Good luck with your business.
