I`m not a supporter of any party as I feel it is best to try to choose the best option each and every time rather than blindly following any one party. Because of this over the years I have voted for Labour, Liberal , Conservative and Green . This time I could not genuinely say I felt any of those 4 was worth my vote as the Greens have gone a bit too mental I think and the other 3 have all in the recent past done terrible things to the UK. I want out of the EU as I feel it is not good for us. Parts are good, parts are bad but on balance my opinion is we would be a better place to live if we were out. From my own business experience as an importer/exporter I know how easy it is to transport and buy & sell goods around the world regardless of EU membership or not. Honda seem to have no problem selling their bikes here and apparently LandRover/Jaguar are both selling well in China & India for example. I certainly don't want a UKIP government but if they are able to facilitate a referendum to be held here then I would say their work is done . Would it really be so terrible to have a serious, open, good tempered and honest debate and then let the electorate decide ? No smearing opponents either, after all nobody is perfect. One of the big problems is politicians saying "3 million jobs will go " or similar. Nobody actually knows, we all have opinions , that is all. Glid has mentioned that the Swiss are often having referendums, that is what we should do here as then at least the people would decide on the matters that are vexing them, or at least those that take an interest. Isn`t that what democracy should be rather than our current FPTP system where, current coalition excluded, once every 5 years 35%- 40% of the 60 odd % who vote get to choose the government. And now the parties will be drastically changing policies and making tough statements to try to stem the Ukip tide. Will they be doing this because they have "listened to the people" or because they want to cling onto or regain power at all costs ?
at the risk of diving off down a side alley, metaphorically speaking, I was thinking about this perception - real or imagined - that 'nutters' are becoming representatives of UKIP. You want to become an MP, MEP, MSP, whatever. You're reasonably bright, can string a sentence together and have enough sense not to open your mouth at the wrong time (most of us here being excluded by the last criterium). Would you join an established party with a good record in local, national, whatever elections? Or would you join some fringe party with little or no electoral record? I'm betting the former. Now, if you were a total nutter, the established parties wouldn't touch you. But a new entrant - UKIP for example - might. As the party matures, it will be able to pick it's candidates from a larger pool and should be able to choose less, er, crazy candidates.
Indeed. If you asked people which of these are true of UKIP: a. they voted against equal pay for men and women b. they voted against a crack-down on the illegal ivory trade c. they plan to privatise the NHS I doubt many of them would realise that they are all true!
yeah, cos the NHS is just fantastic the way it is. You know, being able to kill people and then cover it up.
Bear in mind that it was the other three parties that have systematically b*ggered up the UK........ .......(There shouldn't be any need to list the 'failures' since the 60's)..... ......I see no reason as to why a fourth party shouldn't have an opportunity to b*gger it up as well......
Or being able to get treatment free at the point of use. Anyone can use 'Mail' type headlines to assassinate things. Its easy to use a headline of an unfortunate and mainly isolated series of incidents to pretend that its happening all over isnt it. Whilst ignoring the fantastic work our nurses and doctors do daily to help save people lives. But hey thats not sensational enough is it.
I'm no believer in the sanctity of the NHS, or anything really. Putting an organisation on a pedestal and refusing to see it's weaknesses is shortsighted and leaves it's consumers open to abuse. Sure, my comment was meant to provoke, but blindly following the party line that doctors and nurses are saints and do no wrong is just as 'tabloid headline' as saying that hospitals kill. Personally, there are better healthcare models than ours. We shouldn't be afraid to look at them.
I think 'somebody' should become an MP for one of the three failure parties.......... ..........because like them, he is in complete denial or simply 'just don't get it' why they got a drubbing..... .....it isn't just 'immigration'; the 'EU' or the NHS.
I can see the weakness's. I can also see the strength's. When the ambulance comes after a spill, will you say to the driver or the paramedic that you do not require treatment? Will you refuse their assistance and repeat your claims to them and the nurses treating you? Or will you just accept it and keep schtoom? Are all people murderers just because one man murdered? Sweeping generalisations are a fools tool, used without heed to veracity. No point trying to provoke without adding context and depth to illustrate the provocation. Yes bad things happen. But I for one have had some marvellous treatment and a trip around Barts might open your eyes. You dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Better healthcare models? Where? They all cost money. I know all about this as my father was a nationalised american. His 1st million he earnt was wasted on a quad heart bypass. So he went away and made more. The next got swallowed by ALS and the day after his death they arrived to take all his earnings, home, cars etc etc etc. My stepmother was evicted. All to pay for the healthcare. Nice system and he was white. If he had been black then he wouldve died after due to the heart problem as he wouldve had no money. You get the system you are prepared to pay for and whilst you sit at home bemoaning your taxes, people die as we care more about cars and clothes than social welfare. If we want better we should pay more tax.
Germany for one. Did you know, the average income tax paid in this country is around £6,500? That means there are a lot of people subsidising a lot of other people here. Social/socialist stuff? We're paying enough, thanks. There's more than enough redistribution of 'wealth' already without wasting more of our money. It beggars belief when Milliband bangs on about the cost of living for hardworking families, when the greatest single bill a family faces is it's tax bill! It's just bonkers.
The problem as I see it is that you are required to make large numbers of people 'like' you in order to get votes. The imaginary person that would possibly be in a best position to bring the greatest enduring positive change to the UK is probably someone that couldn't find a friend in a room full of needy puppies. The ideal candidate would perhaps be a highly intelligent geek, not a personable PR focused media whore.
I don't think it is quite as simple as that as too much of our money is spent badly. Politicians gloat that they are spending another £100 million on this and that, maybe they should think about how they spend it rather than how much they spend. It seems as daft as me gloating that I spent another £100 on my bike insurance this year . My other half works in the NHS in admin in a small local trust. The tens of thousands of pounds of wastage she tells me about just in her small part of the NHS is frightening, even worse when you know it is replicated nationwide.
Well its a common market. If Germany suits you, then by all means go and live and pay taxes there. I have no experience of Germany and thus cannot comment. Tax is all about others subsidising others. Thats the point. If money is all you care about I can photocopy a couple of pics of a £50 for you to jizz over. I cant defend Milliband or the current labour party. Even though I vote for them. They are rubbish. I care about injustice, old people, education for all and healthcare for all. In an egalitarian society for all. But I am just a fuckwit dreamer.
Boots, I think we share the same ideals, not necessarily how to achieve them. I don't believe that children should have children to get flats, while we pay the new grandparents to rent rooms that are now empty. Where I live, in a relatively affluent area, I can think of three families I know directly where people my age, who are subsidised directly by us (i.e. you, me, most people on this forum), have children below the age of 18 who have had children and are now moving into their own state sponsored flats/houses. The new parents are not working and have 'chosen' to live off the state. I don't agree with that. Yes, they should be helped and supported in some way. I don't know what the best way is, but I wouldn't say that the current model is the best. Similarly, the NHS might work perfectly well in some cases, but in a load of others, it doesn't. For example, out of hours care is available where I live on a drop-in basis. An hours drive away. It takes weeks to get an appointment with a GP, who then takes weeks to refer you to a consultant. Once you've got your referral, it can take months to see the consultant. Sure, I've had really good emergency care, but the aftercare was rubbish. I'm paid hourly. If I have a 9:30 appointment and don't see the doctor/consultant/whoever until 10:30, that adds up to a lot of lost income. I don't think I should have to leave the country I was born in just because I can see that another country has a better model that we should maybe look at. I'm surprised and a little disappointed that you should suggest that. UKIP are accused of being racist for allegedly suggesting that if people don't like how things are here, they should leave. From here, the same accusation could be made of you.
That's a very interesting point. I'd like to know how you think the UK has been buggered up since the 60s. I might well agree with you, but I'd be interested to know what you think might have been avoided with better politics and where it might be now, or what it would look like. I might also say that in 50 years, you'd have thought that a democracy would have had enough chances to rectify things politically if they weren't working. My suspicion is that people aren't so miserable, and that many of the things I might not like, the majority of the population is actually in favour of. Could it not be that the real power in the UK is invested in the City of London, the Establishment, elites etc and that whoever you vote for wouldn't make that much difference to these things in any case?
Racism means to oppress a people of differing race and to deny them the rights of freedom, liberty and equality. It does not mean suggesting people relocate to somewhere else; except when that suggestion is due to their racial background. I have no idea of your race thus that last paragraph of yours is not quite right. If anything its Tebbitism. I know the world, sorry the country we live in is not perfect. I know inequalities exist. I know there are failings in all the social services we provide. I know that there is waste. But I am damn proud that we try. No matter how idiotic our nation is, and it can be quite profoundly idiotic; I am proud that when the chips are down we do stand for what is the right thing to do in the face of insurmountable odds. The very essence of the welfare state and the NHS is something I am proud our country, as daft as it is, tries to maintain. I also understand that we may well be arguing over 2 sides of the same coin. We all see things differently. But as you said, your comment was made to provoke. Dont be surprised if you provoke a good natured tirade of abuse and piss taking. I love our NHS and have had some good and bad experiences myself. But I am more than happy to wait 5hrs in a queue whilst those more needy are dealt with. As I said before, take a trip round Barts or any other childrens hospital and see for yourself how we get it right sometimes. There is nothing wrong with moaning about it either. Its a very British thing to do. You are just moaning and so am I. Please do not take anything I say or write personally.
I think we're in agreement. My only concern is that we get the best value for money from our taxed income. If that means that we look at our 'institutions' and compare them with other models, so be it. If we couldn't move forward as a nation or as individuals, we'd still be wearing grass skirts and painting ourselves blue. Change is the only constant. If I couldn't take it, I wouldn't stand up and say it
