hijack? if ligth riders complain, then that is very worrying.. normally Ducs are setup for light riders... its the 100KG + riders that order heavier springs when new... it think however that the lack of stability under wind at high speed has all to do with the geometry that is much steeper and front oriented... when everyone was compalining on the 1198's for turning in slow but being rock solid once leaned over, it should be no surpise that when it now flips corners like a flee on a dog, it will be less stable once there... wider handlebars empahasize the slightets of input ass well.... it is also a much faster bike... perhaps it should first be ridden at that pace for it to settle... a very interesting thread! much to be learned here... 1 MIO USD question : when do we see the active suspension as on the HP4... and will it be an improvement? grtz
Have consired chopping my Evo in for a 'prilla V4 or Panini but think i'll keep what I have and spend a grand on making it handle better...the dyno work I had done meant it keeps with larger capacity now even on track but I still darent try the new dook in case I want it...
One down on the front did ok and 139hp (on the dyno day) makes a difference....10 more than the strat of tha day but eckon the Pani would be more comfy and easier to use for just pootling along on a sunday ride, given its dimensions and tank layout, but then so would a gixxer tho
Just by way of an update on this, I haven't fallen off the face of the planet, just gone quiet for a while whilst I try to sort it out and then will repost.
I am an ignorant twot, who knows nothing and has no experience either.... so pretty much like everyone else then I suppose. I bought my Panigale S, ran it in, fitted the 'Comfort' seat for obvious reasons and off I went. I am certain the clever engineers at Ducati know more than I do. They have spent more money trailing and testing than I shall ever possess. With this in mind, I learnt how my nice new bike behaved by only using it in 'Wet' mode for the first 1000 miles. Then I selected the middle mode with full power but gentle delivery. I find this a good compromise as 'Race' mode is too jerky in everyday conditions. I'm 14stone (that's 14x14 to get Pounds), about average for a middle-aged old git. The suspension is fine. I do serious mileage... my Dealership uses my bike to prove their durability for pities sake ! DO NOT slam your brakes on... this will ALWAYS lead to suspension dive on any conventionally forked, road-going bike. Squeeze the brakes on. This avoids shock-loading and avoids the nasty side issues, plus they actually work harder, so better. I'm not dissing suspension experts, but there are so few genuine experts that I know that anyone fiddle, fiddle, fiddling and then flogging their bike because they 'can't get it right', is the problem, not the bike ! Sorry, but someone had to say it and I'm valueless enough not to be worth blitzing with hatred and wrath. : )
Each to their own, and I am glad you either can't tell the difference or don't care, this will make your experience rather simpler and I am glad you are enjoying the bike. As for the rest of us, most of us set the bike up to fit our weight and style. Suspension and geometry are not a black art, they are very simple. Those of us complaining have set up multiple bikes, and all the others have worked rather better than this. The Panigale is very agile, but is not well setup out of the box, and the aggressive engine character unsettles the bike when you get on the gas. Ask any/every single racer or race team that has tried to setup one of these bikes. Whereas no-one had such issues with the 1098 range, Desmo, 916 range et al. Or with the Aprilias, Blades or GSXR's we have all setup, owned, raced or ridden. So it's probably just us. Glad you are happy with yours.
The clever Ducati engineers gave you suspension that can be adjusted at the press of the button. I'd like to think they did that for reasons other than just bumping up the price. I'm not a bike suspension setup expert by any stretch either, but I think you underestimate the difference external factors such as rider weight make even if the percentage difference seems small. For example, I used to track an old Porsche which weighed about 1500kg with driver on board.... even with that base weight, I could notice the difference in a corner (at track speeds) with a passenger sitting in the car with me. That's an extra 65kg on 1500kg.... so about +-4% weight change was noticeable to me. On the Panigale.... call it 190kg for the bike wet. I weigh 75kg (you weigh about 90kg) so a total of 265kg for me, or 280kg for you. The difference percentage wise is over 5%.... and you and I aren't all that different in weight. 5% is a lot! In motorsport terms, it's the difference between first and last.... and on the road it's certainly enough to take the bike from "good" to "great." I don't advocate constantly fiddling with your suspension unless you're on the track and looks for incremental improvements..... but to my mind, having dropped a significant chunk of cash on one of these machines, you'd be crazy not to invest a very small amount extra to get an expert to set it up for your weight and riding style. Ian
Just by way of a quick update, after a few more months this year of riding my Panigale as well as the 848 and the Desmo (which I rode from the UK to Spain and back), my thoughts on the Panigale remain unchanged, but I think that the answers are clearer. The bike is far more stable now that I have managed to get the geometry right, which is a big improvement, with the bike substantially lower at 200mm front fork height and 216mm rear. But the instability on the gas remains because the engine character is just too aggressive low down the throttle/engine range. Therefore the very agile geometry, which will work far more easily on the track than the old 848/1098 range did, will be very twitchy on the road by comparison, but would be far more manageable with a well mannered engine response. But the fundamental architecture of the aggressive v-twin together with the engine mapping makes this bike very difficult to manage. The v-4 on the desmo is so smooth by comparison that even though that bike is stiffer and even less road friendly, you can have perfect control of what it is doing and getting on the gas calms the bike down rather than unsettling it further. so not sure that unless there are significant advances made in the mapping with these bikes in time, that much is going to change. I do on the other hand like the bike enough otherwise to keep it, but I think it would make a better track bike than road bike. Which I not that surprising, but not for the reasons you would expect. I wonder if this is just as aggressive as you can make a v-twin and this is the consequence. The chassis isn't a problem on the road, but the engine character arguably is..... Which gives hope that it may yet be possible to make significant improvement.
Thanks for keeping this thread running Cham. From my side, I've now done about 600 miles on my Panigale over the past 6 weeks, which has included one CSS training day at Silverstone Stowe, plus various weekend rides on the range of road surfaces Britain has to offer. For context, mine is a base model with ABS. Suspension is set to Progressive (well I assume the arrow pointing to P means that!) When I bought it I spent some time at MD Racing to set up the suspension and made the following observations/changes. As stock, the bike had virtually no rear sag, so backed off the rear preload to get to 10mm rear sag; also noted a lack of front rebound damping and ended up with front rebound set to within 2 clicks of max. No changes made to ride height. I have the race seat fitted. My interest is primarily in track day riding. The caveat to all my comments is that this is my first sports bike after a long time away, other than a track day last year on a hired R6, so my reference points may be a bit off. but my observations: 1) I've not noticed the stability issues you raised in your first post - even on rough surfaces I've felt the bike has gone where I pointed it (or stayed straight if I hadn't!). However, I do find a lot of vibration/harshness on certain road surfaces. 2) The bike seems super sensitive to rider position and particularly doesn't like rider moving around during turn in. Moving around during turn in causes some weaving, though it actually still feels quite planted. I've chalked that up to bad rider skills, rather than a problem with the bike. But maybe there is something in the view that a well setup bike will flatter a rider rather than highlight their deficiencies? 3) There is noticeable dive under braking, however I have not bottomed out the forks despite an emergency and ham-fisted braking "event" which got the back wheel off the ground. (I think I need to thank the ABS gods).... that said.... between the amount of rebound adjustment that was required plus the dive, I suspect that a heavier grade oil in the forks would be a useful step forward. 4) Engine character. I'm puzzled by your comment on instability on the gas? Exactly how does this manifest itself? It's certainly somewhat unstable if you go on/off the gas mid-corner (but any bike is to a greater/lesser degree) and arguably more pronounced given the sharp delivery of power + v-twin characteristics.... but I've definitely not experienced instability if I pick a line and accelerate through it steadily. I guess in summary, I agree there are improvements to be made but overall the package still seems pretty damn good to me. In my case, I've more to gain by improving my riding style before making more suspension changes... maybe as I improve I'll find more to worry about on the suspension front. Ian
Cham, i ve found that a greater rear sprocket sort has taken the edge of the choppyness you discribe so well.. staying a bit higher in the rev range takes seems to help... what combo are you wearing? 15/39 or 15/41? 14/39? grtz
Interesting comment from a seasoned racer who rode a well prepped 1198RS and a Panigale ABS but with proper Ohlins forks and TTX shock. more speed. After riding it he could understand why Dave didnt; He said unlike any other Ducati, it didn't need bodyweight to muscle it around. More like it fell into corners. Following Dave he was going t tell him to drop his shoulders. Ore into a turn to use that weight t help quicker steer and again carry he also said the RS could barely keep up in a straight line ;-)
Stumbled across this thread and thought I'd bump it up as I've started looking into suspension on the Panigale 1199s. Does anyone have any updates? - Only useful thing I can contribute so far is some advice a guy racing a Panigale at Cadwell gave me. I was getting loads of rear movement on fast long corners and making the rebound softer really helped to settle the bike and make the tyres last longer. I dropped over half a second laptime consistently as soon as I went out on these. Front Compression 10 / Rebound 10 ( stock settings 10C/8R, 8mm preload) Rear Compression 10 / Rebound 12 ( stock settings 10C/10R, 23mm preload) I've also done a couple of mods to make the bike closer to the R and 899. - Steering head angle bearings changed to the R version so the angle is now 24 degrees instead of 24.5 degrees. I did it at the same time as the rear sprocket so it's difficult to know how much of a difference it makes until getting on track but it's a cheap mod at ~£50. - Rear sprocket up two teeth to 41. Should be better out of the corners I havn't tested on track yet but the bike feels more coiled up and ready to go across the revs. Not sure if I would or wouldn't recommend for pure road riding. As Kope says it takes some of the choppy-ness out because you're always reving a little bit higher, but I think the map updates have helped fix that anyhow. If you ride fairly hard then I think you'll prefer the extra teeth, otherwise the stock 39 is probably better for lazy road riding (not that that's very easy on the Pani haha)? Random points: - I think the mapping updates have made a massive difference on the way the bike rides over the 2012 model. - Tank grip is absolutely essential imo to be able to hussle the bike and to save the crown jewels! - Race setting is terrible on really bumpy roads; actually felt like a puncture at one point in the Isle of Man until I changed to sport mode. Otherwise I find the bike works better if I leave it in race mode although in general it needs riding hard to feel like it's working. I'm off to Almeria for four days with a Ducati Data Analyser to try and learn some black magic
^ this thread is invaluable for helping 'gale set up imo and would be 'stickied' normally if I was in charge of the glue. @Cupid Stunt may benefit.
Not quite sure why adding rebound on the front would help to alleviate running out of fork travel. I woould have thought this a spring/rider sag/preload issue first and then a compression adjustment second. Two books that are invaluable to help understand suspension adjustment are: Suspension Tuning: How to Set Up Your Bike for Handling, Stability, and Control on the Street and Track: Amazon.co.uk: Andrew Trevitt: 9781893618459: Books and Motorcycle Suspension Bible: Dirt, Street and Track (Workshop) (Motorbooks Workshop): Amazon.co.uk: Paul Thede, Lee Parks: 9780760331408: Books
Oops that should have been compression stiffened rather than rebound, not sure if I messed up at the track or writing the numbers down so need to check the bike. Either way I've removed it so the post doesn't confuse. Glad you spotted that! Got the second book and ordered the first yesterday. My holiday reading next week! I'm hoping more of it makes sense if I'm able to work through settings methodically on the bike at the same time.
I have Tony Foale's original which does deserve to have 'bible' in the same sentence unlike a lot of impersonators.Unfortunately it is prohibitively expensive if you want a hard-copy now until next reprint.
