New Car Market - What A Disappointment - Agree/disagree

J0n3s · Feb 14, 2018

No deals to be had?

When the Mrs was ordering her Range Rover I thought I’d try out the Jags. The dealer offered £20k off the ticket price without even asking and suggested he could go even better. Then he offered a contribution towards the PCP if I wanted it on that as well.

Told him for £90k I could get two Ducati Desmosedicis.

Wayne58 · Feb 14, 2018

J0n3s said: ↑

Told him for £90k I could get two Ducati Desmosedicis.
Click to expand...

5 or 6 at robbo's prices

Rebel · Feb 14, 2018

J0n3s said: ↑

No deals to be had?

When the Mrs was ordering her Range Rover I thought I’d try out the Jags. The dealer offered £20k off the ticket price without even asking and suggested he could go even better. Then he offered a contribution towards the PCP if I wanted it on that as well.

Told him for £90k I could get two Ducati Desmosedicis.
Click to expand...

The Grand Tour S2 Ep06 Jaaagggsss '' Jaguar last year only sold 200k vehicle across the world compare to the german manufactors 8 million each''

I know of someone trading in there BM X6 for a Jag F Pace S, less than 3 months went back to a X6 with all the trouble he had with it...

Dirty Leeds · Feb 15, 2018

Exige said: ↑

York tip - 4 miles away, takes 30 mins to get there on a weekend, massive queues - can't get in
Tadcaster tip 10 miles away, takes 15 mins to get there on a weekend and let in, no queue and items emptied by staff too - no charge
Click to expand...

Last time I went york tip I parked round the corner and sac Barrowed a settee round then lent it on the fence and did one....it was 3am...saved me fly tipping

Dirty Leeds · Feb 15, 2018

Love vans

Dirty Leeds · Feb 15, 2018

And old cars with circa 150k miles on but cheap to buy (occasionally expensive to fix admittedly) and fun unlike today's super sanitised electronic everything, no sound, no sensation of speed or raw power bar some mega rides ...but mine or rather my Mrs is 265 bhp but it feels and sounds more and is great fun despite been a 56 plate...also got an Audi TT Quattro sport again a 2005 car 240 bhp as standard but it's just a great fun car ok it's Quattro but I like that especially with winter tyres on it's like a limpit in all weathers ...love old motors....character is the word, I see endless soulless motors these days cars and bikes.

Jimmy899 · Feb 15, 2018

I think my 2016 BMW 320D (company car) is a fantastic bit of kit. It’s my second in 7 years.

Albeit I use my bike for real performance related fun, the BMW boasts performance figures a 90’s sports car would be happy with, does 55mpg, handles brilliantly and has relatively low CO2 figures.

I guess it’s a case of horses for courses. I do 30k miles per year and the 8 speed automatic coupled with automatic cruise control is a winner. If you do fancy some fun in the twistes, turn traction control off and stick it in manual.

Now would I spend the 40k list price on the car if it was my own money, no way. In 2020 I’ll probably leave the company car scheme and go for the car allowance - in that case I’ll be looking for the best PCP deal available. The idea of renting something with rapid depreciation is quite attractive.

If you want performance bang for you buck in the used market check out the Nissan 370Z, or if it’s exotic you’re after, Maserati seem to love a bit of depreciation.

Mary Hinge · Feb 15, 2018

I'd say a 2-3 year old BMW M6 is magnificent bang for buck! Can't believe the performance and quality of car for the money.

Dirty Leeds · Mar 3, 2018

Sev said: ↑

When manufacturers design cars now they work on a customer profile and an RDC ( reference duty cycle). The other most important thing is BOM cost (bill of Materials) and TaC time (time at each point on the assembly line).

When they talk of the lifetime of a car, they generally look to the RDC profile, so for instance:

Example 1 - I just want a reliable car dude, know my place, don't get ideas above my station.

a bloke buying a skoda for argument sake will be cautious or not too wealthy and not change his car very often - he wants a workhorse which won't let him down and he's not the sort of bloke to be dazzled by shiny new bling. When his car dies he'll look to move on to another car, and if it dies too soon or has too many problems he'll never touch your brand again.

RDC - maybe 10 years, 200k km, Materials can be no frills, not many extras as options, but what there are must be reliable, use floorpan and driveline components from known good generation or generation which has lots of recorded history of reliability.

Example 2 - Look at my wad

A bloke who wants a supercar either say out of woking, or gaydon or modena. He will be affluently wealthy, and probably have several other cars as regular hacks, thus this is about status, showing off, creating a lifestyle image. It will probably be garaged, and if it needs work it's put down to 'highly strung temperament' and if it spends three months at the dealer then that's not the problem because you fluff him good and proper. If he is rich he'll keep it and buy another, if he's just wealthy he may look to chop it in for the next new shiny.

The dealer will never give him discount as such, but will offer a 'very attractive trade in incentive' - the discount is hidden in other ways but the perception of brand value is maintained.

RDC - probably 4k per annum, or in the case of something like a p1 / fxx 1.5 to 2k per annum ; Perception of quality all important. - note I said perception there. Build cost can be higher as the cost overall is greater as most of this tier of customer won't want base spec, they'll want personalisation in a massive way to prove a point. Bobby Billionaire never wants to be accused of going for the poverty spec as the marketing people in some marques like to call it.

The problem that the car makers have with these guys is that they're not stupid, they're stupidly rich for a reason and they know quality and they know when they're having their pants pulled down - it literally boils down to how much they like the salesman as to whether they clinch the deal - when you've got 2mil plus to land on a car, you do it because you want to not because you have to, and there's a lot of toys barking or your attention - planes, yachts houses etc.

Porsche are a good example of this. Their engines have inherent flaws with cylinder plating and some other engine components, but they know that the majority of their customers will be wealthy enough to trade in or buy another. They don't care that a bloke restoring an old 998 is being charged 3k for a head, its not their problem.

Example 3 - Middle class Marvin

So this is pretty much the profile most of us sit in now. We want to be seen in a nice car. We want to have toys in the car, and things to point at and talk about.

Most of our stuff is on the never never, and the perception of quality and excellence is spoon fed to us through media and marketing - the germans started this old blag way back when with the built like a golf and vosprung durch technic ads back in the 80's.

RDC - 10 Years or 100k, ; perceived higher quality materials. I say perceived bacause we have been educated as to what represents quality - most of the leather in cars is beyond cheap - f it was the quality of a decent bike suit you'd never have the saggy seats. Alcantara - man made , but people will pay through the nose for it, because race car innit. Lots of toys, and things taken for granted - nobody wants to pay for aircon and parking sensors for instance. Things like parking sensors cost about a 10p each at oem level, so dealers selling them as service parts make a killing on them. Like most stuff like that, they fail quite regularly as they're a simple device exposed to all sorts of shitty environmental stuff.

BOM - you'll be looking to make this car to aim for 10-15% of base price, and the real profit screwed on options.. So a focus for instance will cost around just under 5k to build and get out the door.

This bloke however is profiled as "aspirational" he wants to be seen in the nicest car and say to his peers that he's pretty sorted. The PCP plan is designed for this bloke.

PCP allows marvin to afford fifty / sixty / eighty grand cars. It allows him to chop the car in when the facelift comes out. It allows him to never have to worry about service costs and the car shitting itself as it's always in warranty.

PCP allows the manufacturer to:

keep marvin happy by renting him a car he can't ever afford, and thus feeding his aspirational sense of self betterment.

If a problem with the car arises it's fixed without hassle as its under warranty. - very handy for "known problems"

If a car has a known problem, at the end of pcp term the dealer will keep marvin happy by offering him an unbelievable trade in incentive on a new model for being such a great customer. (not because any known fault documented at the OEM must be replaced under warranty irrespective of the age of the car)

All marvin has to do is keep his end of the bargain... keep it serviced on time at the main dealer.

Audi had massive problems with the A3 convertible where the tonneau rubbed away on the rear quarters. Dealers were forced to change entire roof mechanisms under warranty and so there was a big push to get owners off those cars by offering massive trade in bonuses and options packages on anything else but another a3 cab.

Also it allows the marque to keep people sweet. Take the BMW i3 and i8, you own the batteries, not rent them. If you want to wipe the smug grin off a salesman's face ask him the cost of replacement out of warranty. His answer will be oh it's 100,000 miles or five years (or whatever it is), but he'll get very nervous about giving you a figure if you pulled the "what if the warranty lapses and the battery dies?"

Once a car is out of its warranty period you see the real face of a dealership - you are of no interest to them unless you're lining yourself up for another vehicle or will never complain over the cost of servicing and spares for your beloved old shitter that you can't bear to part with because it's been faultless. BMW and Merc also take advantage of customers with older cars, the dealer will happily discount 50% off his labour rate because the old boy with the E30 or 500SEC will pay through the nose for parts to keep his precious old car going.

The older car, i.e out of warranty is something that the OEM and the dealership want as little to do with as possible - if you're not spending then you're nobody to them pure and simple. Example 1 for instance will be like a faithful hound to a dealership he knows and trusts and it's only a matter of time before he trades in when he feels that it's too long in the tooth.

The problem with most "modern classics" will be when all the electrical systems start failing - and they'll be the ones where the snap-on obd tester and fault code reader won't cut it, and you need OEM main dealer diagnostics. Ziggy's exige for instance, will always be maintainable and runnable with the right owner. The same won't be said of many things that require complex systems and body controllers and ecu's to do simple tasks.

Stigma has a lot to do with it. Ze germans have created a myth around their reliability which has truly ensured that the other euro manufacturers see residuals fall through the floor once they're out of warranty. Maserati being a classic, but pretty much everything mass production now factors up to a 45% residual loss in the first three years.

anyway.. I'll shut up.
Click to expand...

Interesting read that

El Toro · Mar 3, 2018

I'm closing in said: ↑

Interesting read that
Click to expand...

And applicable to the bike market too.

comfysofa · Mar 3, 2018

You're telling me....when I roll up at riders on my 2010 hyper. I tend to get looked at like I'd just been scraped off the bottom of the sales managers shoe...

Mary Hinge · Mar 3, 2018

comfysofa said: ↑

You're telling me....when I roll up at riders on my 2010 hyper. I tend to get looked at like I'd just been scraped off the bottom of the sales managers shoe...
Click to expand...

Well get a Desmo. Tight wad...

comfysofa · Mar 3, 2018

Meh....I choose not to....I'm kinda happy where I am....I've got 4 bikes....could happily trade them in/sell'em all and get a v4s or some top-of-the-line bad boy but....

1. I'm not that good so to that end I don't think I'd see the limit of it....as much as I like to think I would though.
2. As much as electronics would be nice/nice to experience I'm don't " need" it...
3. In turn the lack of electronics in what I do own makes home servicing and me being able to look after my stuff easier..
4. I've got 4 "lesser" bikes but I get to choose the right tool for the job on the day of whatever or wherever I'm going and that's a big plus..

I think the only thing that'd light my fire at the moment contradicting the above would be a supercharged z1000 as mines definitely my most used and favorite of the 4....but even then retuning to point number 1 I don't think I'd see the limit of it but....if it were to surface it is a little bit more of a "straight line Eddie" type of bike...

GordonH · Mar 3, 2018

Sev said: ↑

When manufacturers design cars now they work on a customer profile and an RDC ( reference duty cycle). The other most important thing is BOM cost (bill of Materials) and TaC time (time at each point on the assembly line).

When they talk of the lifetime of a car, they generally look to the RDC profile, so for instance:

Example 1 - I just want a reliable car dude, know my place, don't get ideas above my station.

a bloke buying a skoda for argument sake will be cautious or not too wealthy and not change his car very often - he wants a workhorse which won't let him down and he's not the sort of bloke to be dazzled by shiny new bling. When his car dies he'll look to move on to another car, and if it dies too soon or has too many problems he'll never touch your brand again.

RDC - maybe 10 years, 200k km, Materials can be no frills, not many extras as options, but what there are must be reliable, use floorpan and driveline components from known good generation or generation which has lots of recorded history of reliability.

Example 2 - Look at my wad

A bloke who wants a supercar either say out of woking, or gaydon or modena. He will be affluently wealthy, and probably have several other cars as regular hacks, thus this is about status, showing off, creating a lifestyle image. It will probably be garaged, and if it needs work it's put down to 'highly strung temperament' and if it spends three months at the dealer then that's not the problem because you fluff him good and proper. If he is rich he'll keep it and buy another, if he's just wealthy he may look to chop it in for the next new shiny.

The dealer will never give him discount as such, but will offer a 'very attractive trade in incentive' - the discount is hidden in other ways but the perception of brand value is maintained.

RDC - probably 4k per annum, or in the case of something like a p1 / fxx 1.5 to 2k per annum ; Perception of quality all important. - note I said perception there. Build cost can be higher as the cost overall is greater as most of this tier of customer won't want base spec, they'll want personalisation in a massive way to prove a point. Bobby Billionaire never wants to be accused of going for the poverty spec as the marketing people in some marques like to call it.

The problem that the car makers have with these guys is that they're not stupid, they're stupidly rich for a reason and they know quality and they know when they're having their pants pulled down - it literally boils down to how much they like the salesman as to whether they clinch the deal - when you've got 2mil plus to land on a car, you do it because you want to not because you have to, and there's a lot of toys barking or your attention - planes, yachts houses etc.

Porsche are a good example of this. Their engines have inherent flaws with cylinder plating and some other engine components, but they know that the majority of their customers will be wealthy enough to trade in or buy another. They don't care that a bloke restoring an old 998 is being charged 3k for a head, its not their problem.

Example 3 - Middle class Marvin

So this is pretty much the profile most of us sit in now. We want to be seen in a nice car. We want to have toys in the car, and things to point at and talk about.

Most of our stuff is on the never never, and the perception of quality and excellence is spoon fed to us through media and marketing - the germans started this old blag way back when with the built like a golf and vosprung durch technic ads back in the 80's.

RDC - 10 Years or 100k, ; perceived higher quality materials. I say perceived bacause we have been educated as to what represents quality - most of the leather in cars is beyond cheap - f it was the quality of a decent bike suit you'd never have the saggy seats. Alcantara - man made , but people will pay through the nose for it, because race car innit. Lots of toys, and things taken for granted - nobody wants to pay for aircon and parking sensors for instance. Things like parking sensors cost about a 10p each at oem level, so dealers selling them as service parts make a killing on them. Like most stuff like that, they fail quite regularly as they're a simple device exposed to all sorts of shitty environmental stuff.

BOM - you'll be looking to make this car to aim for 10-15% of base price, and the real profit screwed on options.. So a focus for instance will cost around just under 5k to build and get out the door.

This bloke however is profiled as "aspirational" he wants to be seen in the nicest car and say to his peers that he's pretty sorted. The PCP plan is designed for this bloke.

PCP allows marvin to afford fifty / sixty / eighty grand cars. It allows him to chop the car in when the facelift comes out. It allows him to never have to worry about service costs and the car shitting itself as it's always in warranty.

PCP allows the manufacturer to:

keep marvin happy by renting him a car he can't ever afford, and thus feeding his aspirational sense of self betterment.

If a problem with the car arises it's fixed without hassle as its under warranty. - very handy for "known problems"

If a car has a known problem, at the end of pcp term the dealer will keep marvin happy by offering him an unbelievable trade in incentive on a new model for being such a great customer. (not because any known fault documented at the OEM must be replaced under warranty irrespective of the age of the car)

All marvin has to do is keep his end of the bargain... keep it serviced on time at the main dealer.

Audi had massive problems with the A3 convertible where the tonneau rubbed away on the rear quarters. Dealers were forced to change entire roof mechanisms under warranty and so there was a big push to get owners off those cars by offering massive trade in bonuses and options packages on anything else but another a3 cab.

Also it allows the marque to keep people sweet. Take the BMW i3 and i8, you own the batteries, not rent them. If you want to wipe the smug grin off a salesman's face ask him the cost of replacement out of warranty. His answer will be oh it's 100,000 miles or five years (or whatever it is), but he'll get very nervous about giving you a figure if you pulled the "what if the warranty lapses and the battery dies?"

Once a car is out of its warranty period you see the real face of a dealership - you are of no interest to them unless you're lining yourself up for another vehicle or will never complain over the cost of servicing and spares for your beloved old shitter that you can't bear to part with because it's been faultless. BMW and Merc also take advantage of customers with older cars, the dealer will happily discount 50% off his labour rate because the old boy with the E30 or 500SEC will pay through the nose for parts to keep his precious old car going.

The older car, i.e out of warranty is something that the OEM and the dealership want as little to do with as possible - if you're not spending then you're nobody to them pure and simple. Example 1 for instance will be like a faithful hound to a dealership he knows and trusts and it's only a matter of time before he trades in when he feels that it's too long in the tooth.

The problem with most "modern classics" will be when all the electrical systems start failing - and they'll be the ones where the snap-on obd tester and fault code reader won't cut it, and you need OEM main dealer diagnostics. Ziggy's exige for instance, will always be maintainable and runnable with the right owner. The same won't be said of many things that require complex systems and body controllers and ecu's to do simple tasks.

Stigma has a lot to do with it. Ze germans have created a myth around their reliability which has truly ensured that the other euro manufacturers see residuals fall through the floor once they're out of warranty. Maserati being a classic, but pretty much everything mass production now factors up to a 45% residual loss in the first three years.

anyway.. I'll shut up.
Click to expand...

Very interesting post!

Exige · Mar 3, 2018

Sev said: ↑

When manufacturers design cars now they work on a customer profile and an RDC ( reference duty cycle). The other most important thing is BOM cost (bill of Materials) and TaC time (time at each point on the assembly line).

When they talk of the lifetime of a car, they generally look to the RDC profile, so for instance:

Example 1 - I just want a reliable car dude, know my place, don't get ideas above my station.

a bloke buying a skoda for argument sake will be cautious or not too wealthy and not change his car very often - he wants a workhorse which won't let him down and he's not the sort of bloke to be dazzled by shiny new bling. When his car dies he'll look to move on to another car, and if it dies too soon or has too many problems he'll never touch your brand again.

RDC - maybe 10 years, 200k km, Materials can be no frills, not many extras as options, but what there are must be reliable, use floorpan and driveline components from known good generation or generation which has lots of recorded history of reliability.

Example 2 - Look at my wad

A bloke who wants a supercar either say out of woking, or gaydon or modena. He will be affluently wealthy, and probably have several other cars as regular hacks, thus this is about status, showing off, creating a lifestyle image. It will probably be garaged, and if it needs work it's put down to 'highly strung temperament' and if it spends three months at the dealer then that's not the problem because you fluff him good and proper. If he is rich he'll keep it and buy another, if he's just wealthy he may look to chop it in for the next new shiny.

The dealer will never give him discount as such, but will offer a 'very attractive trade in incentive' - the discount is hidden in other ways but the perception of brand value is maintained.

RDC - probably 4k per annum, or in the case of something like a p1 / fxx 1.5 to 2k per annum ; Perception of quality all important. - note I said perception there. Build cost can be higher as the cost overall is greater as most of this tier of customer won't want base spec, they'll want personalisation in a massive way to prove a point. Bobby Billionaire never wants to be accused of going for the poverty spec as the marketing people in some marques like to call it.

The problem that the car makers have with these guys is that they're not stupid, they're stupidly rich for a reason and they know quality and they know when they're having their pants pulled down - it literally boils down to how much they like the salesman as to whether they clinch the deal - when you've got 2mil plus to land on a car, you do it because you want to not because you have to, and there's a lot of toys barking or your attention - planes, yachts houses etc.

Porsche are a good example of this. Their engines have inherent flaws with cylinder plating and some other engine components, but they know that the majority of their customers will be wealthy enough to trade in or buy another. They don't care that a bloke restoring an old 998 is being charged 3k for a head, its not their problem.

Example 3 - Middle class Marvin

So this is pretty much the profile most of us sit in now. We want to be seen in a nice car. We want to have toys in the car, and things to point at and talk about.

Most of our stuff is on the never never, and the perception of quality and excellence is spoon fed to us through media and marketing - the germans started this old blag way back when with the built like a golf and vosprung durch technic ads back in the 80's.

RDC - 10 Years or 100k, ; perceived higher quality materials. I say perceived bacause we have been educated as to what represents quality - most of the leather in cars is beyond cheap - f it was the quality of a decent bike suit you'd never have the saggy seats. Alcantara - man made , but people will pay through the nose for it, because race car innit. Lots of toys, and things taken for granted - nobody wants to pay for aircon and parking sensors for instance. Things like parking sensors cost about a 10p each at oem level, so dealers selling them as service parts make a killing on them. Like most stuff like that, they fail quite regularly as they're a simple device exposed to all sorts of shitty environmental stuff.

BOM - you'll be looking to make this car to aim for 10-15% of base price, and the real profit screwed on options.. So a focus for instance will cost around just under 5k to build and get out the door.

This bloke however is profiled as "aspirational" he wants to be seen in the nicest car and say to his peers that he's pretty sorted. The PCP plan is designed for this bloke.

PCP allows marvin to afford fifty / sixty / eighty grand cars. It allows him to chop the car in when the facelift comes out. It allows him to never have to worry about service costs and the car shitting itself as it's always in warranty.

PCP allows the manufacturer to:

keep marvin happy by renting him a car he can't ever afford, and thus feeding his aspirational sense of self betterment.

If a problem with the car arises it's fixed without hassle as its under warranty. - very handy for "known problems"

If a car has a known problem, at the end of pcp term the dealer will keep marvin happy by offering him an unbelievable trade in incentive on a new model for being such a great customer. (not because any known fault documented at the OEM must be replaced under warranty irrespective of the age of the car)

All marvin has to do is keep his end of the bargain... keep it serviced on time at the main dealer.

Audi had massive problems with the A3 convertible where the tonneau rubbed away on the rear quarters. Dealers were forced to change entire roof mechanisms under warranty and so there was a big push to get owners off those cars by offering massive trade in bonuses and options packages on anything else but another a3 cab.

Also it allows the marque to keep people sweet. Take the BMW i3 and i8, you own the batteries, not rent them. If you want to wipe the smug grin off a salesman's face ask him the cost of replacement out of warranty. His answer will be oh it's 100,000 miles or five years (or whatever it is), but he'll get very nervous about giving you a figure if you pulled the "what if the warranty lapses and the battery dies?"

Once a car is out of its warranty period you see the real face of a dealership - you are of no interest to them unless you're lining yourself up for another vehicle or will never complain over the cost of servicing and spares for your beloved old shitter that you can't bear to part with because it's been faultless. BMW and Merc also take advantage of customers with older cars, the dealer will happily discount 50% off his labour rate because the old boy with the E30 or 500SEC will pay through the nose for parts to keep his precious old car going.

The older car, i.e out of warranty is something that the OEM and the dealership want as little to do with as possible - if you're not spending then you're nobody to them pure and simple. Example 1 for instance will be like a faithful hound to a dealership he knows and trusts and it's only a matter of time before he trades in when he feels that it's too long in the tooth.

The problem with most "modern classics" will be when all the electrical systems start failing - and they'll be the ones where the snap-on obd tester and fault code reader won't cut it, and you need OEM main dealer diagnostics. Ziggy's exige for instance, will always be maintainable and runnable with the right owner. The same won't be said of many things that require complex systems and body controllers and ecu's to do simple tasks.

Stigma has a lot to do with it. Ze germans have created a myth around their reliability which has truly ensured that the other euro manufacturers see residuals fall through the floor once they're out of warranty. Maserati being a classic, but pretty much everything mass production now factors up to a 45% residual loss in the first three years.

anyway.. I'll shut up.
Click to expand...

Try dropping the odd smiley in there next time a lil emotion goes a long way

Flatfish · Mar 3, 2018

Exige said: ↑

Me - it's fab and big in the back innit
Click to expand...

Not as big as my LWB

Exige · Mar 3, 2018

Flatfish said: ↑

Not as big as my LWB
Click to expand...

It's not the size it's how you use it when it comes to vans

Flatfish · Mar 3, 2018

Exige said: ↑

It's not the size it's how you use it when it comes to vans
Click to expand...

you mean its the size of the hammer, not the nail?

Exige · Mar 3, 2018

Flatfish said: ↑

you mean its the size of the hammer, not the nail?
Click to expand...

Don't bring AC into this

Jimmy899 · Mar 4, 2018

Sev said: ↑

Totally.
harley have been doing it for years, and it's by no accident that Ducati's sales model is a near carbon copy of the Harley model. People are quick to knock harley but they have created a lifestyle image cult and a look about them which transcends the machines. You can see people buying into the harley 'thing' without ever knowing one end of a bike from the other.

That man walking through the doors is a prospect, you qualify the prospect early on and if he's not there to put money in the till you focus on the next dude. Harley will often drop casual comments in the frame such as "it'll see you right for three or four years.." harmless comments but carefully sculpted to make you think that in that time frame you ought to think about changing it. All he has to do in the gap in between is keep feeding you coffee and giving you test rides and ride out.

Both harley and Ducaudi both have advantage that they are as much a lifestyle brand as a motorcycle manufacturer. It's the golden goose if you will, much like Ferrari and Lamborghini. Customers buy into these brands as accessories to complement their 'style, look and status' as well as any other reason which can be put on a spec sheet.

Perfect example is the person who comes into wealth and says they want a ferrari. Ducati and Harley are very much the same in this respect where with the advent of the 916 people who couldn't ride bought them as ornamental pieces - art in their own right.

I knew a guy when I was going my test who bought a fat boy for his billiard room, and decided after six years to finally learn how to ride a bike.

Going back to the example above, Ducaudi and MV would have both worked out we love mothering our bikes. they'll for the most part come out on dry days and we'll lavish money and time on them. We want brand bling like Ohlins and Termignoni or Akropovic out of the box ( its buy no accident the HD accessories catalogue is like a telephone directory), and in the most part we might even be lucky to be in a position where we keep it and then dump 20k on a new one in three years time, or alternatively it will be near showroom quality when it gets traded in.

What this means is that the bike can be made more fragile by comparison to a jap bike, they won't need to worry about durability cycle of a bolt which potentially will sit outside in all weathers and never be unwound in over ten years. Unlike jap stuff you won't get a ducati covered in M8 - 12 bolts as the standard norm with m6 and 5's being for holding the clocks on!
CBR or GSXR that you can leave rotting in the garden in all the shittest weather and it fires and runs first time after six months, and one pressure washer later it's as good as new.. sure bolts are furry but what the hell.

Audi has bought manufacturing speed into the mix - you can see this straight away on everything since panigale. I bet you could tear that bike and a v4 down in an hour if you know the assembly sequence.

Ducati owners are the prospective audi and porsche buyers int he VW food chain if we were to draw a parallel, with the Superleggera customer being the bloke who in a position to get the lambo, and who most likely is in the dealership buying one of every new model and it's variants produced.

Now what you hope is that bloke who buys the SS today, is the guy who is a bit richer in three years time and chops in for a Pani.. you get the idea.

At the top of the tree, you can unleash the ego and pride assault, where dude who wants the SL edition of xyz may have the money ten times over but still can't get one because they are 'invite only for their most loyal customers who own at least three cars or have been a loyal customer for X years..'. Mc Senna, FXX etc fall into this category where irrespective of whether you could afford one, it was whether Mc or Maranello will let you to have one...

this is how you reel bobby billionaire above in. He can afford anything, for him it's now about statement, image projection and the aspiration turns into the desire to not be excluded or denied in the face of his peer group.

I'll shut up again now..
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Really interesting couple of posts.

It’s great that these companies/manufacturers are employing these sales strategies (lifestyle, performance, reliability etc..) as without them would all be riding round on penny farthings

New Car Market - What A Disappointment - Agree/disagree

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