Portuguese Motorway Tolls

Pete1950 · Sep 9, 2013

Lightning_650 said: ↑

Aww,c'mon mate,I think I've made my various points quite clearly,and I didn't want to bore anyone else by repeating them. Sorry, but your points were pretty muddled actually. This clarification is most welcome.
But just for you:
If we want to travel on the public,(taxpayer funded) roads in/on any form of motor vehicle,we have to pay. Yes, and some countries have for many years had privately-funded roads which charge tolls for all users, while other countries don't. That is part of the problem.
This payment may be to travel on all ,or just some,types of taxpayer funded road.
Whichever name you give it,RFL/Road tax/Vignette/Toll/whatever,it's a cost to you.Just like a tax...only Politicians and rule makers can't bring themselves to describe it so simply.
Harmonising the cost of using publicly funded roads throughout the EU would be a very easy thing to do, What an optimist you are! I think harmonising would be very difficult and complicated, since all 28 member states' governments and parliaments would have to agree but as usual,the political Ego-Trippers all have different favourite methods of fleecing the taxpayer,so we end up with the usual dogs breakfast. To begin with, everything in every area was a dog's breakfast. Lots of things have been harmonised but lots have not - or at least, not yet. And there are political opponents of harmonisation in every country. The process is ongoing. As an awful lot of cars and motorcycles never leave their own countries,you could say that for the Owners of these vehicles it won't make a blind bit of difference, and so why bother with harmonisation. Fair enough, a lot of the motorways throughout Europe are tax-free for visitors with cars/bikes etc It is still not entirely fair that I have to pay to ride my bike on the autostradas of Italy, while an Italian can ride for free on the motorways of UK, for example.
But as someone who runs a business whose vehicles travel throughout Europe very frequently,I take a very keen interest in any costs which disadvantage my business against those similar businesses in other member States of the EU,(formerly called the Common Market,and supposed to be an Economic Union,which it patently is not) Very good point - the single market does indeed need much further work.
As I described in an earlier post,various forms and amounts of tax are charged for trucks to travel ,(on taxpayer funded roads),in different countries of the EU. Indeed - and also on non-taxpayer funded roads.
When my vehicles travel in these Countries.I have to pay these charges.I don't bitch about this:if you use the roads,you have to help pay for the upkeep
In addition to this,I also pay the RFL in this country.I don't bitch about this:if you use the roads,you have to help pay for the upkeep. Vehicle tax is simple a form of revenue collection to fund all government purposes, like Vat or income tax - there is no link to the cost of building and maintaining roads. In addition to this,I also pay some of the highest fuel prices in the EU
I do bitch about Foreign trucks entering the UK,wearing out "our",road network,for free.(and by bringing in fuel bought more cheaply in other countries,they also avoid any UK fuel duty either) However UK trucks travelling in Europe can also buy fuel there at local lower prices, e.g. in Luxemburg
The EU,which the UK is a member of,could quite easily introduce a harmonised tax for all these vehicles in their various different classes,but they don't.It's a complicated mess of different windscreen transponders,stick-on discs,per-km charges...a bloody nightmare for small companies like mine. 28 different member states have 28 systems. The EU cannot easily override these local laws, whether in UK or in the other 27; the agreement of the countries is needed. The 50 states of the USA also have different regimes for hauliers.
so here you go:
(1) The UK Government should be charging Foreign HGV's to use our road network.Easily done,either by distance,(like the German Toll-Collect),or by the time period,(like the Euro-Vignette).They don't do either,so the UK taxpayer picks up the tab for helping an awful lot of our Continental cousins undercut UK hauliers.Idiots I agree entirely. Successive UK governments have done very badly on this score, to the detriment of the UK haulage industry.
(2) All this could be avoided by the EU harmonising tax rates for HGV's.No Vignette/no Maut/no Toll-Collect/whatever you like to call it required,Europe-wide,everyone pays the same. One transponder on the windscreen/one gantry at every truck entry border crossing pings you in-an-out,and that country gets paid it's fair share.But they don't,far better for them rule their own than do good for International business.More idiots. In an ideal world the regime for HGVs, vehicle taxation, fuel duty and road charging would be harmonised across the EU, I agree entirely. This would be a very complex thing to achieve, taking several years and involving difficult negotiations with all 28 member states, the Parliament and the Commission. Good luck with your campaign to achieve this.
Hope this has clarified things for you,Pete.
And just a small point.What you describe as "asking politely",doesn't actually read that way.It actually comes across as someone talking about someone else,even though the someone being talked about can hear you. Is it more polite to refer to someone in the second person or the third person in a debate? That is a matter of opinion. MPs in our parliament use the third person, for example, and using the second person is considered rude.
We don't do that in Bedfordshire.
Asking politely usually involves an actual request down here.
Click to expand...

Actually, Lightning (if I may use the second person), I substantially agree with your complaints and with your proposals. You have made a whole series of very convincing points. But if I may say so, it does not help when tackling a complex and tricky matter to describe it as easy, nor does it help to label those you want to undertake a difficult task as idiots.

May I ask another question? Do you think cabotage should be banned, permitted with limitations, or unlimited?

Lightning_650 · Sep 9, 2013

Pete1950 said: ↑

Actually, Lightning (if I may use the second person), I substantially agree with your complaints and with your proposals. You have made a whole series of very convincing points. But if I may say so, it does not help when tackling a complex and tricky matter to describe it as easy, nor does it help to label those you want to undertake a difficult task as idiots.

May I ask another question? Do you think cabotage should be banned, permitted with limitations, or unlimited?
Click to expand...

Cabotage is a very thorny question.
The Englishman in me says it should be banned,because I know that UK hauliers have higher costs than many other EU countries,a(fuel/wages/Insurance etc),and do not enjoy the subsidies that other EU Governments pay to support their haulage industry,(Rebates for fitting particulate traps/being an early adopter for new technologies,i.e,Germany/Denmark etc.).Higher costs = higher haulage prices.
The European in me says that if this ever to be a genuine Economic Union or Common Market,(which is what I voted for),then Customers should be free to choose the haulier they want,regardless of Nationality,and regardless of where the load is coming from or going to.But this will only happen fairly if there was harmonisation as described in an earlier post.
I can afford to look at both sides of the argument because in my sector of the Industry it is not currently an issue.
If I was trying to run general haulage or groupage internationally,it would be a big problem. UK Trucking Ltd can't afford to carry out cabotage in Eastern Europe as the rates are too low,and UK PLC likes Eastern Europeans as their rates are so low.
I note your comment about UK hauliers buying fuel abroad? You can only do that if you are trucking abroad,and there are very few UK trucks on mainland EU roads because of the low rates offered,(see previous paragraph for the reason)
As I said,thorny question

wroughtironron · Sep 9, 2013

Filled my hire car up this morning and it cost me 52.5 euro to take a Citroen C3 from just under half full to full.

Unleaded cost 1.67 euro a litre - Jesus, that's as much as moonshine in some places...

Pete1950 · Sep 10, 2013

Lightning_650 said: ↑

Cabotage is a very thorny question.
The Englishman in me says it should be banned,because I know that UK hauliers have higher costs than many other EU countries,a(fuel/wages/Insurance etc),and do not enjoy the subsidies that other EU Governments pay to support their haulage industry,(Rebates for fitting particulate traps/being an early adopter for new technologies,i.e,Germany/Denmark etc.).Higher costs = higher haulage prices.
The European in me says that if this ever to be a genuine Economic Union or Common Market,(which is what I voted for),then Customers should be free to choose the haulier they want,regardless of Nationality,and regardless of where the load is coming from or going to.But this will only happen fairly if there was harmonisation as described in an earlier post.
I can afford to look at both sides of the argument because in my sector of the Industry it is not currently an issue.
If I was trying to run general haulage or groupage internationally,it would be a big problem. UK Trucking Ltd can't afford to carry out cabotage in Eastern Europe as the rates are too low,and UK PLC likes Eastern Europeans as their rates are so low.
I note your comment about UK hauliers buying fuel abroad? You can only do that if you are trucking abroad,and there are very few UK trucks on mainland EU roads because of the low rates offered,(see previous paragraph for the reason)
As I said,thorny question
Click to expand...

My view is that cabotage is a desirable thing in principle, but should represent the end-point of a multi-stage process. The harmonisation of various aspects of the haulage regime across member states should proceed by stages, culminating in unrestricted cabotage. It is wrong and unfair for cabotage to be introduced before there is a level playing field.

Portuguese Motorway Tolls

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