religion or god has always been a problem throughout history. violence, rascism, murder in all its forms including amongst many others infanticide and genocide. rape is okay (look up the book of Job were he offers his daughter to be gang raped) religions seek the end of life on this earth and the destruction of this earth, believing instead in the tawdry promises of an afterlife, thus devaluing THIS life..the only one we know that we have or will ever have. Religion is, at its core, evil. at best, its just a nasty fairy story, at its worst it is the inspiration for hate and murder. things that are done 'in the name of religion' are all acts that are specifically written in the texts. religions makes wild scientific claims, offering no evidence, as it NEVER has done..religion has provided no answers, no peace, no advancement of any kind and is a tawdry sham..is it a coincidence that the most illiterate, violent, sexist, unjust and right wing countries are also the most religious? religion instructs people what to eat, what to think, what to do and how to do it, how to have sex and with whom..god can even tell if youve committed a thought crime and you will be punished, and punished absolutely... Apostacy is written in the Quran..the ORDER to murder a person who leaves Islam... when a believer understands why they dont believe in any other gods...apollo, zeus, yaweh, allah or the flying spaghetti monster, then they'll understand why i dont believe in theirs.. anyone who thinks that religion is harmless is naive or stupid and has certainly not read any section of any part of any holy book, but rather has heard the cherry picked cosy sections in a sort of Flintstones world.. If god made adam and eve (eve of course was scum as is always the case in holy books..the woman is made from anything such as a rib, mud or clots of blood)..this is a profound corner of religion and has on its own, caused awful unfairness and division and a loss of 50% of the talent of humanity, and eve gave birth to two sons:caine and abel, where did everyone else come from?...magic? if were all gods children, why do the books all say we should take slaves and murder those who do not capitulate to ones personal god? to save them from themselves? The only moral and intellectual way for the human race to advance is for people to have the bravery to think for themselves and share their open-mindedness with others, not acting under the guidance of a celestial dictator.
this is a non sequitur. the fact that you saw it doesnt mean it does exist either...there are such things as hallucinations. i havent seen hydrogen and oxygen molecules bonding, but i know water exists, because water is the evidence and the mechanism is understood, testable, observable and repeatable..the scientific method.... your argument is simply saying, ' i dont understand, i give up, its too difficult'...this argument doesnt mean that it is has the value as the contrary argument, just like creationists think that genesis should be taught in science class as the 'alternative theory'...it is not of equal weight at is has no basis in knowledge or fact, or even attempt to explain the mechanisms of its ludicrous claims.. therefore its not a comparable alternative...it is nothing, which is where i put your well meaning statement. would you rather trust science and it developing theory of abiogenesis (the creation of life), or simply read page one of the bible which says it happened like this, because it happened like this, whilst offering no explanation of anything and then contradicting itself on page 2. (feel free to choose any version of the 1000 or so alternative versions of the bible).. in the bronze age , humanity didnt know what blood did, had no concept of germs, bacteria, fertility, the cosmos, air, photosynthesis, illness, how anything worked, why it was windy, why it rained, what volcanoes were, earthquakes....in fact living in the dusty bowl of the middle east you wouldnt even have seen snow, (doesnt mean it doesnt exist of course)!, snow isnt mentioned in the bible of course..the all knowing book...no, instead they treat us to frogs raining down and talking plants... i wonder how noah saved the polar bear..? a rational, logical person can only accept anything with evidence once they are out of their infancy, to do anything less is to remain in a perpetual cycle of childishness...we normally call this an education and life experience.
I didn't say seeing it means it exists, i said because i/you haven't doesn't mean it's not real. I have never seen Australia and only have other peoples word that it even exists but i accept it's probably there. I have never seen an alien but given the number of universes and the number of planets in them i'm open to the prospect. Religion is not an issue. It can be as visible or invisible as the human race makes it, it's the individuals perception of it that is the problem. Being a football supporter is not a problem in itself but if "supporters" interpret it as a right to smash innocent opposing team specatators in the face then it's a problem. The problem is not football, it's the individual acting in it's name. I should say i am not religous but i have a problem with anti's ramming their ideology as much as i do those that beleive. Each to his own.
What passes for an adhesion to a religion is often, on closer inspection, an adhesion to a particular culture or group. In this respect it isn't really any different to following a football team. It's a basic human tribal instinct. The culture, though founded on religious quicksand, often produces admirable things, like village churches or roots reggae. Despite being an atheist, would I want to see churches razed to the ground? No. But if they taught something more useful in them, it wouldn't be a bad plan. Maybe one day they will.
Spoonz, i understood perfectly what you said..re-read my post. Glidd, whether or not people stick to a religion through tribalism isnt in debate..most kids never get the chance to make a decision, moreso if theyre in a segregated school...a cultural religion doesnt make it any less of a pollutant, and belonging to a tribe doesnt make it any less toxic..it could be a football team, but it could also be the BNP. This tribalism is manipulated by religions, cults and politicians, not to mention advertisers and companies. Religion has undoubtedly inspired great works of art, architecture and so on..usually at a time when people had little or no choice, or when we were (more) primitive, superstitious and less educated...Newton spent most of his career pursuing alchemy for instance, but also made huge discoveries in physics..The earliest universities were sponsored by the church...if you were a scientist would you say the earth was flat, or the earth revolved around the sun and destroy your career or be murdered?? Galileo, anybody? Im not sure why you mentioned it, but anyone who wants to destroy devotional paintings etc or cathedrals is an idiot..these are beautiful things and part of our culture..besides, why stoop to the levels the of the major religions? this is how they behave..our cultural edifices should always be preserved and im as opposed to the desecration of churches as i am to the vandalism of say, the V&A (although the V&A is more useful). Do not forget however, that there have been even more great works that are not inspired by religion in a more secularised and grown up world, and even more great architecture...many artists working back in the day were subject to enormous censorship, death, and simply a lack of commisions if they couldnt/didnt produce the work that was required. Beethoven's 6th to name but one of million pieces of music for instance... This is still not arguement for the existence of religion, or that it is a force for good. "well, we got a few nice buildings and some music out of it'..At what cost to humanity?? A price not worth paying..the human creative spirit would STILL have created things of beauty... Lest we forget, that for every church or cathedral built, it was built with the labour of the poor and from stealing their land and money...People were dying in the streets of London as the foundations of St. Pauls were laid..literally starving to death yards away with kids in workhouses and down mines.. Beautiful those these buildings are, they are a testament to human folly...all around them at the time was a slum..the money spent on them could have raised living standards and saved lives...surely thats a christian ideal? Of course not...its all take, take, take. As we learn more about the truth of the creation of the universe or the wonders witnessed in a microscope, the beauty of the cosmos and evolution grows exponentially and becomes more and more wonderful with each new discovery...we are in an unprecendented age of understanding. To know that all of the elements in the universe and every atom in your body were forged within the nuclear furnace of stars is breath taking, and as Carl Sagan put it, 'We are all made of star stuff'....if thats not inspiring, spiritual, magnificent and awesome then i dont know what is...and the fact that its actually TRUE with EVIDENCE makes it more staggering than humankind could ever have imagined in the dust bowl of the middle east, when the invention of the wheel was a miracle....makes a burning bush, or magic-ing up a bit of wine seem rather hollow and shabby dont you think? Star Stuff: Carl Sagan on stellar evolution [Carl Sagan Tribute Series] - YouTube are you not moved? and its real..it actually happened... and we are all intertwined and at one in a way that is so breath taking beautiful and humbling..the truth that we are uncovering is so unfathomably graceful, spiritual and majestic than humanity could ever have dreamed... When you know the truth, religion is a poor snake oil salesmen's confidence trick and a waste of the beauty of the human brain and an insult to the 3.7 billion years for us to get here on our lovely, little blue planet..mother earth x Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot - YouTube
As you well know, Funky, you are preaching to the converted as far as I am concerned. I'm simply suggesting that religion is often more a question if self definition and belonging than belief in the supernatural. But believing that you have a handbook to life which sets things out in black and white is very dangerous - whoever's book it is.
You could say that Newton was 'the last alchemist and the first scientist'; the time Newton spent transforming alchemy into real science by applying the scientific method was among his most productive. It was large amounts of time he spent studying theology and arcana which seem in hindsight to have been wasted.
i think religion for most people IS a belief in metaphysics first and foremost and a cultural identity second..so called fundamentalists are only doing what it says in the instruction manual, and in the case of the illiterate muslim world, is deciphered and taught as fact to the uneducated. most people have never even read their instruction manual, and in the case of islam, its only ever printed in ancient hebrew, which closes the door on most debate..a clever and devious tactic. i respect anyone who has the bravery to leave their religious upbringing and be free in mind, body and spirit. these people are heroes in my opinion.
There are lots of bad things done in the name of religion and like anything it usually involves power and money. My point is that religion didn't ask anyone to do any of that, the people who claim to represent Religion did. It's a fundamental thing for a human to question their origin and much of Religion is borne out of that. The need to beleive we come from and go back to something better. Science can explain a lot but not everything. I did a charity Ghost night with what was Southern Sound Radio a few years back and i can tell you something happened to 3 of us (1 of which i didn't know) that opened my eyes. It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion but it was a verifiable event that convinced me that nothing is as straight up and down as it seems. Hence i'm open to things being possible that science cannot explain until it is proven otherwise to me. (No i didn't see a ghost) Science is only as accurate as the people who come up with the logic the logic. If the maths is wrong the outcome is wrong. My outlook on much in life is that if it doesn't hurt me or my family, i'm ok with whatever people do with their lives. If it does affect me and especially my family then they need to look over their shoulders. That's where i am with religion. Most religous people i know or come across are not interested in converting or preaching to me and get on with their lives and i have no problem with that.
but thats where you're wrong...well sort of..it doesnt ask, it orders... amongst many, many others it includes: the stoning to death of anyone working on the sabbath..i cant remember the exact passage but in deutoromony a person is stoned to death for collecting kindling as per the above instruction. the stoning to death of adulterers, homosexuals, those of other faiths (worshipping false gods) etc etc etc it orders amongst other things human sacrifice and murder.Because the samarians believed in a different god, our gentle friend jesus meek and mild tells them: (hosea 13 in case youre interested) "The people of Samaria are guilty as charged because they rebelled against God. They will be killed in war, their children will be smashed to death, and their pregnant women will be ripped open". often quoted in opposition to female priests: Timothy 2:12, in which the saint says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent." genocide: Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. Human sacrifice of ones' own child: Genesis 22, in which Abraham is made to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice; "Then God said: 'Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you'."(Genesis 22:2) this endorsement of female subservience in Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit to you husbands as to the Lord"; and similar advice for slaves in 1 Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. More murder, this time against homosexuals: "And the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." (Romans 1:27) some other nice ones i keep for my theological debate nights at the Priest and Altar Boy: "And the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." (Romans 1:27) "Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the Lord against the sun" (Numbers 25.4) "The Lord is a man of war" Exodus and on it goes...
"... at midnight the Lord smote all the first born in the land of Egypt, from the first born of the pharaoh... unto the first born of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the first born cattle" -- Exodus 12:29 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” -- Isaiah 45:7 (also Lam3:38) Their children shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes! There houses spoiled, and their wives raped... Dash the young men to pieces...have no pity on the fruit of the womb, the children shall not be spared blah blah..fkn blah.. if you have this vile book in your house burn it or use it as a doorstop (unless you have kids, in which case DEFINATELY burn it. and on and on it goes...
So we abandon science? EVERYTHING we DO know about EVERYTHING has come from science..do you know what beats science, old theories, or how things are disproved or advanced??? A: Better science. Thats the scientific method.. Science is not limited by the people that come up with the logic..much of science defies logic..quantum theory for example...science uses the tools it has created: mathematics, quatum mechanics etc etc to further develop understanding...it doesnt just 'get the maths wrong', it is peer reviewed, tested and retested and retested over and over..they dont just stop.... when science reaches a conclusion, it never states that it is 100% correct..take Newtonian physics for example...challenges are also being made on Einsteins theory of general relativity.. that doesnt mean its wrong, or junk..its refined, developed, improved... Scientists use tools (theoretical and physical) to go beyond the limits of human capabilites..ie, the hubble telescope, the LHC, which marry these two principles together.... if things dont affect you personally thats great, but i see the bigger picture..i see how it affects other people and the world we live in...and the fact is..it DOES affect you....every time you get on a flight or walk down the street or turn on the news or buy petrol...if you live in ireland its worse.. i too have no problem with people who keep their religious views to themselves....its what we all deserve..i just wosh they wouldnt ut those flourescent posters up outside the church that say "now hiring"...ffs, they even call people sheep!! how apt is that??!
I understand what your saying but your qouting from books written by humans in interpretation of God, alah etc's will. Science will never be abandoned nor should it but because science does not yet understand how or why something happens does not mean it doesn't exist. it's like time travel which most scientists beleive is not possible but if someone came up with a forumula tomorrow it would become fact. Theory today fact tomorrow is how science works. On the balance of evidence do i think God is likely, probably not but because as far as i know no one who would get to meet him ever comes back to tell the tale i can't be sure. But that is not proof of non existence, just a mathmatical liklehood that he doesn't. You also have to consider what God might be. The creator or seed of life ? That could be an alien visitor much like the Prometheus film if you have seen it. The fact they are worshipped as a deity is just the human rational of how we got here because the world was flat and there was nothing beyond what people saw with their own eyes and that was their slant on the glow in the sky and the man with beady eyes,. The religous beliefs we have now have been bastardised by years of interpretation. For example the belief in holy wars or martyrs by some religions yet not others but apparantly they worship the same God. Did he give several versions of his will to different people or did they all invent their own ?
Science is about experiment, investigation, thoroughness, pushing boundaries and proving to the world's experts of the time that the results are beyond doubt. Religion is largely based on stories from the past (2,000+ years old), told and retold in a variety of languages, and interpreted in a variety of ways by individuals to suit their own needs. No opportunity for different interpretations then. Have any of you ever read a newspaper article about a current issue you know something about that did not contain inaccuracies or mis-quotes? How on earth can people believe recycled stories from millennia ago still have any credence whatsoever? When reasoned argument and scientific fact fails to convince religious folk their view might not be the only world view, they fall back on "faith". In other words, regardless of what anyone says or any evidence to the contrary, I am right. Check out documentaries about the Phipps family in the USA for an extreme example. In terms of god, I believe in the religion of the claw. Maybe inspired by / plagiarised from Bladerunner. maybe more folks need to get a Ducati, not god. Keep the faith!!!
I would broadly agree with that. Science generally is applying theories to knowns to discover unkowns. As a devine being as religion sees it is not a perceivable medium in science terms the 2 shall unlikely never meet. Religion like any movement is as good or bad as the people that follow it and it evolves as different leaders interpret it over time. Blind faith in anything is a dangerous game as it asks no questions and that is when bad things happen. Look at what blind obedience did with the Nazi SS guys. Humans like to take things to extremes and religion is a clear example. Most of us will or will have attended a religous ceremony on the passing of a friend or family yet many if not most will not really have any belief in the process. When it hits the fan people can cling to the likely impossible logics in search of comfort. I don't see any harm in that. That is why i don't like blanket tags because nothing is ever "one size fit all"
But in the end will science and religion be seperate ? Take the Quantum Mechanic experiment, passing photons thru' 2 vertical slits, light doesn't bend but the result is seen as 3 or more vertical lines of light, but when sensors are set up to "watch" the photons at the vertical slits, the result is as expected, 2 vertical lines of light, as if the photons "know" they are being watched, how can 1 partical of light (photon) have a consciousness ? :wink:
I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you but you have been the victim of a cruel hoax. Australia does not exist, it is a made up place like Narnia, Atlantis and Belgium.
The bible, quran and the like are the exact words of the so-called god, transcribed by humans...this is a foundational belief of all religions...look up joesph smith, founder of the mormons for one example, or L.Ron hubbard of scientology for another. the holy scriptures are supposedly the actual words of god...in islam, (and christianity, but they dont bother thanks to secularisation) to say or interpret the opposite is a religious crime punishable by death. Although you say existence in a god is likely (you dont specify which one), you also so that it is also statistically improbable..another non sequitur. You also mention evidence..no religion has ever come up with any evidence of any sort, so if you have some let me know, and let me know the rigour with which it has been tested, and also let me know the direct correlation to the existence of a god (and specify which one and why this doesnt apply to the others). Also, is this scientific evidence, or are you using some evidence gathered from the religious community ?(you have several thousand years head start) Ive considered what god may be more than you by the sounds of it..suggesting that a god is the seed or creator is just a meaningless statement without any type of support. You also mention that the bible has been bastardised but dont explain how or are able to supply original documents of the original bible or who wrote it, or who bastardised it. It has certainly been bastardised by anyone that has ever read it, and the only positive that can be concluded is that most of it has thankfully been abandoned..we dont think its okay to rape anymore. How can something be proven not to exist? The only option is to examine where the evidence takes you and draw a conclusion from that, which may be open to futher interpretation upon better evidence..you cant decide the conclusion and attempt to constantly manipulate or misinterpret the evidence to fit the misguided 'conclusion'..this is why science works. No one can disprove the existance of fairies at the bottom of the garden, but experience, evidence and knowledge make this highly improbable..therefore, one concludes that fairies are 99.9% unlikely. this is because of evidence gathered directly and indirectly..asking questions like what are they for? what do they do? is there any trail or clues left behind? sound familiar? So even with 0.01% probability you will always get fools insisting that they are real, trouble is most of them cant read and write. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. you mention the idea that we could be an alien colony...If we were put here, or the wheels set in motion from an external being thats fine..but the external being would still have to be an evolved being..you havent solved anything, this is a circular argument..how did the alien get there? how did it/they get to earth? technology will advance to a point when it will seem to be magic to us, just as an ipod would seem to be magic to the tudors, but we know that an ipod is an oridinary modern device and it works using computer software and electricity....not magic....an inanimate object. Human senses are all in the middle range..our eyes see a narrow spectrum of light, and our senses cannot see the incredibly small or incredibly distant..we use instruments to extend our range and understanding of the world, and it alters our perception..we can see a flower the way an insect sees it. they live on the same planet but in a different world..we know this as fact. holy wars and martyrs are written heavily in the bible...read a few passages where followers are ordered to murder the followers of false gods..didnt you read a couple from my earlier posts? ive got a few dozen more if youre interested! god was supposed to have given people free will..gods will in the bible is one of a jealous, murderous, totalitarian dictator...luckily, due to free will lots of people dont bother with fairy stories anymore.
