I think this is exactly the problem. What we see as a strength, our liberal democracy, they see as a weakness to be exploited. I like living in a liberal democracy but to defend it we may have to destroy it. How depressing :frown:
That’s a very good point but surely the common ground for all the Muslims who have settled in this country is that they have come here for the better life this country (and the west generally) has to offer, be that financially or the liberal attitude we have to others views and lifestyles. Generally we don’t give a monkey’s which brand of Islam they follow but surely it’s reasonable to expect them to leave that old baggage behind and to defend the benefits they came here for from the zealots of their own religion. I suppose another way of putting it is, you came here for the benefits and freedoms now accept some of the responsibilities that go with it and do a LOT more to defend it from your own religion!
I have had this conversation with several muslim colleagues and yes they do come here for the better lifestyle that is available in this country. But they are first and foremost still muslim, they will acknowledge that Islam is being perverted by some but will not criticise them as they take the view that ultimately only Allah will decide. My daughter was at school with a lovely hard working intelligent muslim girl from Malaysia who went on to train as a doctor who became more traditional with the passing of time. She presumably rejected the western lifestyle, which let's face it is not without some serious problems, and retreated into what she knew, which was Islam.
I notice several posts using "liberal" as a term of abuse. Let's straighten this out a little. Murdering people, mutilating people, threatening to do so, and inciting people to commit crimes are illegal in the UK. Failing to arrest and prosecute people who commit these serious offences is not even remotely "liberal" - it is just plain incompetent. In a great number of cases, police in the UK have ignored the most egregious crimes and have refused to take any action even when asked to do so and presented with evidence. This is sheer, gross dereliction of duty - nothing liberal about it. I would like to see a few Chief Constables sacked - not for speaking their minds, but for refusing to do their jobs.
Pete I’m confused by your comment. Here are all of the references to the word liberal in this thread and they all seem neutral at worst or positive to me Post 16: “Here's the problem. Western liberalism v Islam extremism.” Post 22: “What we see as a strength, our liberal democracy” Post 22: “I like living in a liberal democracy” Post 23: “they have come here for the better life this country (and the west generally) has to offer, be that financially or the liberal attitude we have”
What I take issue with is the portrayal (on this and many other threads) of liberal democracy and liberal attitudes as synonymous with being weak and ineffectual. It perfectly possible for liberal democracies to be strong, determined, and highly effective at defeating tyrannies, terrorists, and murderers.
Not if they are in the EU it seems to me. Or do you mean it is possible in theory ? Please name a few current ones as I am struggling to think of any other than Israel that actually stands up for itself. The new Big Cheese in Australia talks about it but who knows what he will do. Neither in the EU of course and maybe neither are all that liberal.
I dont think one could assert that Israel is a liberal democracy...it is another state infected with the virus of religion, ergo, everything goes through the distorting lens of religion...no liberalism there. I also take issue with the portrayal of the word 'extremism' or 'extremist'...what we all seem to conveniently forget is that the so called 'extremists' are actually sticking to the letter of the rule book, with no deviation. It is for this reason that they cannot reconcile any other viewpoint and also have to constantly reenforce and assert these 'values' within its own community. Christianity has by and large moved on from this barbaric medieval perspective in the face of rational, secular thinking...very few christians will admit to flat earth or young earth theory...these are 'liberals'..the ones that stick to the actual code of the bible are the 'extremists' or 'fundamentalists'..instead, knowing that most religious teaching are farcical, most faith heads cherry pick and claim that these passages in the holy books are metaphors and such like....bollocks of course. the failing of most liberal democracies is to say enough is enough and outlaw barbaric practices such as genital mutilation of babies, the halal slaughter of animals whereupon they are bled to death in agony, murder, rape, honour murder, honour rape, sharia etc etc contravening common sense and common law..the religious get of jail free card AGAIN, because we are all brought up in deference to religion and its perversion..Why??? Because, although more secular, we are not yet secular ENOUGH..we are infected with the same virus..we have faith schools (now being rebranded as academies), religious people in power and all the rest of it... A true liberal would not stand for the abuse of the laws of the land and would not yield to barbarism of child abuse, mutilation and any number of amoral acts conducted in the names of religion. The fault, in my view, lies with so called moderates, because it is the softly softly moderates who open the door for the ones that REALLY believe....a civilised world has no place for gods and idols..it values truth, love, science and respect too much for them to be tarnished with tawdry fairy stories, power trips and eons of hate....but we are so entrenched, that to utter the contrary is in itself seen as some sort of extremist view, not simple common sense.. while people hang on to fairies and religious nonsense we will always be swimming against a tide of bullshit..sadly its effects cause damage far in excess of its apparent falsity.
Atheistism is the fastest growing "religion" and is probably now above 40% in the UK. In my opinion this may be a good thing for living peacefully together in what is a very diverse cosmopolitan society here in the UK. A lot of conflicts and almost daily bombings around the World with Christians killing other Christians, Muslims killing other Muslims. Athiests killing Athiests? Doesn't generally happen. Stephen Hawkin often makes good sense;“There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.” Too many people seemed to be blinkered by their beliefs. I have nothing against those with strong religious belief but wish we could all be more tolerant and less ready to take serious offence.
Too many people seemed to be blinkered by their beliefs. I have nothing against those with strong religious belief but wish we could all be more tolerant and less ready to take serious offence.[/QUOTE] I remember listening to a radio phone in some years ago concerning the golliwog on the jam jar and pressure being put on Robertsons to remove it, pressure from manly white people who were taking offence on behalf of the black/coloured/negro community. Sorry, cant remember which words are ok to use in which country to avoid offending anyone and his or her dog. Anyway, a lady called in and very reasonably commented that it was offensive to her that white people thought that anyone outside the black and white minstrel show looked like the golliwog. Fair comment I thought and sums up the sort that look for things to be offended by.
Personally I liked the Golliwog. It was a caricature, I suppose, but then what is wrong with caricatures? Is there not a cartoon Eskimo on some brand or other (can't remember which). Or does it mean that the only cartoons white people can draw are of other white people? I guess the Milky Bar Kid would be considered as being offensive to Red Indians. It all gets a bit stupid, doesn't it? I think I may dig out my Golliwog broaches. I definitely have the bagpiper and the footballer. Interestingly at the time I acquired them, I don't think there were any black footballers in Britain, and I have yet to see a black bagpiper (although there must be some around). Bagpipes in a reggae stylee - now that would be novel. Certainly, as a kid, I just saw the Golliwog as a golliwog - not some sort of representation of black people. But then, I didn't come across many black people in Didcot in the 60s and 70s.
I had a golliwog as a child and bought one for my daughter as well, they were not too easy to find 14 years ago! I also had the book “Little Black Sambo” which a lot of well-meaning folks got hot under the collar about. But as a kid I thought that he was really clever for getting out of a difficult situation and making good in the end.
Little Black Sambo - top book. I liked the Tigers going round and round and ending up as ghee. That's in Little Black Sambo, isn't it? Or am I confusing it with another book?
I can also recommend The Struwwelpeter which was another top book. There is a reference to "the blackamoor" in that, when some kid falls into an ink pot. But as I recall, the other kids who make fun of him are berated by Agrippa (??) for doing so and told not to be mean to the blackamoor. I managed to buy a copy of the book new a few years ago. Bought it for me - no kids.
